Tories' reported plan for equalization changes provokes backlash

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Furthermore, to take this to a bit of an extreme, but to get the point across....should not people be outraged, that potentially, federal tax dollars from Winniepg, Moncton or Halifax could theoretically be paying for schools or hospitals in Alberta?

(I know that this is a bit of an extreme example, but still...).

The day Alberta recieves more money from the Feds than it gives, this point will have merit.

[MarchHare]

Also i would say the majority of albertans have no problem sending money to the maritimes to garuntee things such as healthcare and education. My primary problem lies in the absolutely monstrous payments that are given to quebec, 5-8 billion per year if my memory serves correctly. For a province with a wealth of natural resources, they sure have managed to mis manage them p*** poorly, and continueing to threaten seperation at every turn, while raking in 1500$ - 2500$ from every man woman and child in alberta. (The approximate cost per person in alberta of equalization to quebec alone).

From where are you getting that $1500-2500 figure? According to the Department of Finance, Quebec receives $725 per capita in equalization payments. By comparison, New Brunswick receives $1927 and PEI receives $2102 per capita.

http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

[Finner]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

From where are you getting that $1500-2500 figure? According to the Department of Finance, Quebec receives $725 per capita in equalization payments. By comparison, New Brunswick receives $1927 and PEI receives $2102 per capita.

http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

According to this page : http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...Story/National

Quebec receives 5.54 billion and is in line to receive 6.46 billion next year. 5.54 billion / 3 million in alberta....you do the math. And of course quebec receives 725 per capita while alberta pays over 1500 per capita to them. We have only half their population so our per capita would be higher would it not?

And all i was saying from my point of view most albertans have no problem helping the maritimes out, their has been a lack of jobs, resources and industry despite major efforts. However in quebec, a province brimming with resources and manufacturing industries why is their such a major budget deficit? It smells fishy and lazy.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

The day Alberta recieves more money from the Feds than it gives, this point will have merit.

Why?

In all honesty, and again in a simple sense, this would mean Alberta is a have-not province. Meaning that we would actually need the money, theoretically, to provide comparable services at comparable rates to the rest of the country.

That is what you would prefer?

[Lurch]

Alberta is a net contributor to equalization of 14 billion, sending 31 billion per year and receiving 17 billion back.

Also i would say the majority of albertans have no problem sending money to the maritimes to garuntee things such as healthcare and education. My primary problem lies in the absolutely monstrous payments that are given to quebec, 5-8 billion per year if my memory serves correctly. For a province with a wealth of natural resources, they sure have managed to mis manage them p*** poorly, and continueing to threaten seperation at every turn, while raking in 1500$ - 2500$ from every man woman and child in alberta. (The approximate cost per person in alberta of equalization to quebec alone).

So are you changing your vote to Liberal or NDP, as it is Harper's Conservatives that are enriching the program for Quebec.

[Finner]

Originally Posted by Lurch

So are you changing your vote to Liberal or NDP, as it is Harper's Conservatives that are enriching the program for Quebec.

Politics doesn't even enter into this. I thought the argument was if equalization was good or bad for the country or provinces. I simply replied that while i agree with equalization for the maritimes and quebec, in some cases i find that it can stifle productivity in provinces who depend to heavily on getting their next payment, or even fear not getting their next payment.

Quebec has the resources and people to be able to balance a budget while maintaining a social system in line with the rest of canada (In my opinion anyways).

And for the record i vote for whoever i like the most in the election, and who i think will be the best leader instead of toeing some invisible "favorite" party line.

[MarchHare]

Quebect receives 5.54 billion and is in line to receive 6.46 billion next year. 5.54 billion / 3 million in alberta....you do the math.

That's not how equalization works.

Every Canadian taxpayer pays into the "pool" of federal tax dollars earmarked for equalization. That money is then sent to the provincial governments of the "have not" provinces. So Ontario and Alberta aren't paying for equalization alone; every province is paying for equalization. The distinction is that a taxpayer in Manitoba, for example, sees a portion of the taxes they pay to the federal government sent back to their provincial government while Alberta and Ontario do not, so those two provinces are net contributers to equalization while the other eight are net recipients. It's disingenuous to say that every Albertan is paying $1500 to Quebec as that's simply not the case.

However in quebec, a province brimming with resources and manufacturing industries why is their such a major budget deficit? It smells fishy and lazy.

Quebec has the resources and people to be able to balance a budget while maintaining a social system in line with the rest of canada (In my opinion anyways).

Having a budget deficit has no bearing on being entitled to equalization or not. New Brunswick was one of (if not the) first provinces in the country to have a balanced budget, but they still receive equalization. It all depends on a given province's ability to generate revenue and nothing at all to do with whether they spend their tax dollars responsibly or not. The provincial governments of Ontario and Alberta could run huge deficits and they still wouldn't be entitled to equalization payments.

[Finner]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

That's not how equalization works.

Every Canadian taxpayer pays into the "pool" of federal tax dollars earmarked for equalization. That money is then sent to the provincial governments of the "have not" provinces. So Ontario and Alberta aren't paying for equalization alone; every province is paying for equalization. The distinction is that a taxpayer in Manitoba, for example, sees a portion of the taxes they pay to the federal government sent back to their provincial government while Alberta and Ontario do not, so those two provinces are net contributers to equalization while the other eight are net recipients. It's disingenuous to say that every Albertan is paying $1500 to Quebec as that's simply not the case.





Having a budget deficit has no bearing on being entitled to equalization or not. New Brunswick was one of (if not the) first provinces in the country to have a balanced budget, but they still receive equalization. It all depends on a given province's ability to generate revenue and nothing at all to do with whether they spend their tax dollars responsibly or not. The provincial governments of Ontario and Alberta could run huge deficits and they still wouldn't be entitled to equalization payments.

Ahh okay. Thanks for the clear up, i guess my own information was a little off.

[mykalberta]

Lets wait until the budget to see what is up.

This for me will be this years CBC bell weather test. If its in the budget - as the completly non biased CBC says, they have merit - if its not, then they are a bunch of BS artists as usual.

MYK

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Why?

In all honesty, and again in a simple sense, this would mean Alberta is a have-not province. Meaning that we would actually need the money, theoretically, to provide comparable services at comparable rates to the rest of the country.

That is what you would prefer?

The moon could also theoretically fall out of its orbit and crash into Earth. Extremely unlikely scenarios have little relevence to this discussion.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

The moon could also theoretically fall out of its orbit and crash into Earth. Extremely unlikely scenarios have little relevence to this discussion.

sorry? I think it is a relevant question. Or if you do not like it, then why not address Marchhare's questions along the same line....

Furthermore,....

Alberta received equalization payments from 1957 to 1964. Ontario came close in the late 1970s and early 1980s

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cd...alization.html

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I love it when people moan about the problems with equalization despite clearly having no idea how the program works...

Here's a primer:

Certain public programs (healthcare and education being the two most important) are administered and funded by the governments of the provinces, not the federal government. Alas, not all provinces have the same capability to generate tax revenue equally, and the federal government doesn't want the quality of healthcare or education in one province or region to fall too far behind the national average. Enter equalization.

Equalization is money from the federal coffers (taken from taxpayers from all provinces, including the "have not" ones) and transferred to the provincial governments of any province whose per capita revenue-generating ability falls below the "five province standard". That figure is determined by averaging the abilities of the five "middle income" provinces (Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and BC) to earn government revenue at a given level of taxation. Note that Alberta and the Atlantic Provinces are not included in the standard. In other words, Alberta could be 100 times richer than we are now and it still would not affect how much equalization is paid to the "have not" provinces. Equalization exists to make sure that no province falls too far behind the rest of the nation, not to hold back Alberta or Ontario as many here seem to think it does. Be thankful for it if you're ever travelling in another province and need to be hospitalized...

And without energy revenues, Alberta still would be considered a "have" province, given our very strong economy (personal and corparate income tax are included in the equalization formula, including taxation from energy companies), so saying that Alberta would be a "have not" province if you took away our resource revenues is a bit of a spurious claim.

The reason Alberta has wealth is because of the resource industry. I never said anything about how the details of equalization works, i was just using it as an example. Corporate revenues in Alberta are directly tied to energy prices and you can not honestly sit there and tell us that Alberta would be gouged as much as it is if it didnt have the resource revenue. That is what I want known, that even though in the magical feds formula, resource revenues are excluded - they were included as an overage theme when the program was modified by the Torries. Do you really think that farming and ranching provide that much money to the provincial coffers.

If there are changes, most likely O/G revenues wont be written down, but they will be included if the formula is changed. I think this is where the cons might be getting the money for the BS "Fiscal Imbalance" from. It wouldnt surprise me to see BC/Sask/Nfl/NS get less and that money shifts to Quebec. I would be chocked if they did that but I dont see anther way to fund that other than shifting revenue around.

As said earlier, lets wait to see what the Budget actually says to see of the CBC is full of BS or not.

MYK

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Finner

According to this page :
And all i was saying from my point of view most albertans have no problem helping the maritimes out, their has been a lack of jobs, resources and industry despite major efforts. However in quebec, a province brimming with resources and manufacturing industries why is their such a major budget deficit? It smells fishy and lazy.

One has to look at the numbers more carefully than just glancing at the statistics. Quebec recieves the LEAST per capita if you remove BC and Sask whom are close to not qualifying. Quebec makes up 70% of the total population of the remainder of the provinces. Thinking about it this way sheds a different light the numbers.

[Lurch]

Along a similar line, Alberta's bread and butter, the oil industry, was heavily subsidized up until the 70's via the National Oil Program (NOP). This program guaranteed a domestic market for western oil, helping get the industry rolling. Seems almost like the rest of Canada was helpful in getting things off the ground - odd how things like that are not remembered.

- note: edited for an inaccuracy

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Lurch

Along a similar line, Alberta's bread and butter, the oil industry, was heavily subsidized up until the 70's via the National Oil Program (NOP). This program guaranteed a domestic market for western oil, helping get the industry rolling. Seems almost like the rest of Canada was helpful in getting things off the ground - odd how things like that are not remembered.

- note: edited for an inaccuracy

That is true.

And last year on CBC radio, Ralph Klein even said that the federal government still has billions tied up in Alberta's oil industry that it can ask for any time. The response was in regards to a question about whether or not he was concerned that the feds might try to nationalize the oil industry again (which he was not concerned at all of).