Chrismas trees removed in Sea-Tac airport

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Superflyer

For the people that are saying that the airport over-reacted by taking down all decorations and not just putting up other religions items, think about this. First they are being threatened with a lawsuit, second they do not want their names in the media about this (hence the taking them down in the middle of the night).
So lets just say that they do get one of the guys that took the trees down to go on google and research all the other religions as one person suggested. So just to clarify, this is a baggage handler not a person that knows the world (just assuming that the baggage handlers do not have a batchlors degree). They find info on google, on lets keep it easy and says Jewish people. They take their findings to the airport manager and says this is what we need.
So the airport manager has to go and build this whatever the BH found, and it has to be "Giant" or they will get sued. So they take it back to the airport and unveil it, and as it turns out it is menorah is missing an arm or has to many. Oops that offends people as it is not right. Or they wound up making a giant swastika cause the guy just did a search on Jewish people and did not bother checking the history of what he found. Oops that is a big no no.

Also remember this is durung the Christmas season at an airport which is always the busiest season of the year for them as well.

So what was easier, rushing through the research and possably messing things up worse or cutting your losses and taking down everything?

OK, so lets be a bit more realistic. The Airport would not give this to bagagge handler guy - he has enough to do. PR guy on the other hand now has a mission. PR guy could google the world, but why not talk to the guy who runs the Airport chapel? (most airports have them) That pastor relays some useful information - ie. talk to these guys, be aware of these guys. Most ethnic minorities have community buildings in major cities, most hotels (like the one attached to the Airport) have a list on multi-denominational places of worship. Hell, he could have called the Rabbi who threataned the lawsuit!! How about distibuting an inter-office email = 'we would like to learn more about those cultures that do not celebrate Christmas, anyone able to help?"

Sending one guy on a mission probably creates less flak than removing the decorations.

[Crazy Flamer]

Ugh. So the rabbi didn't want to be viewed as a grinch hey? Wonder how that's going for him...

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Crazy Flamer

Ugh. So the rabbi didn't want to be viewed as a grinch hey? Wonder how that's going for him...

Though the Rabbi went overboard, remember the Airport management chose to remove the decorations rather than try to find a compramise, open a dialogue, or include a reasonalbe sized chanukiah in it's display.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Then, when they're done including the chanukiah, they need to look into laying out the lion dance drum and lion, complete with firecrackers strung up, all decorated in red carpet and drapes with the chinese words "prosperity" all over it. Also, they should lay out a table and have various forms of idol food such as mandarine oranges, pork, chicken, red candles and incenses. But what chinese new year decor is complete without the giant golden nugget, kumquat plant, and red packets (hong bao). The bigger the better.

[V]

Holy smokes, I had no idea people viewed the tree as a Christian symbol. We take the tree down after Sinterklaas on December 6 to get all of that commercialism out of the way. Presents are opened, decorations put away, all by the 7th at the latest. Then we do our best to celebrate Christmas as Christians, without all the commercialized hoopla.

This thread has been an eyeopener for sure.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Is it actually 80%. That seems to high to me. Do you have a link?

Either way, your arguement doesn't fly. By your arguement, as already pointed out anything the majority wants can be justified no matter how detremental it is to a minority.
Thankfully the charter protects Canadians from views like yours.

As for the actually story, she's being too sensetive IMO. I don't know how a Christmas tree could offend anyone.
I'm glad it wasn't a muslim lady too, since the reaction would likely be 10X worse then a jewish lady.

\

According to the CIA factbook:

Roman Catholic 42.6%, Protestant 23.3% (including United Church 9.5%, Anglican 6.8%, Baptist 2.4%, Lutheran 2%), other Christian 4.4%, Muslim 1.9%, other and unspecified 11.8%, none 16% (2001 census

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/ca.html

And yes.....my argument does fly.....we are not talking about human rights which are stipulated in the Charter.....we are talking about a God Damn festival celibration......people need to quit comparing a Christmas Tree to Human Rights......

Not sure if you're aware of this....but we live in a Democracy.....where the majority of people decide the rules.....displaying a Christmas tree does not infringe on ANY ones rights.

Protect people from views like mine???? Unbelievable.....The same rights that allow a Christian to display a fricken Christmas tree......are the same rights that allow any other person or religious group to display any of their religious mumbo jumbo. But I guess you buy into the idea that Minorities should be allowed to tell the Majority what to do. Sounds like a dictatorship to me.....Anakin Skywalker.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Then, when they're done including the chanukiah, they need to look into laying out the lion dance drum and lion, complete with firecrackers strung up, all decorated in red carpet and drapes with the chinese words "prosperity" all over it. Also, they should lay out a table and have various forms of idol food such as mandarine oranges, pork, chicken, red candles and incenses. But what chinese new year decor is complete without the giant golden nugget, kumquat plant, and red packets (hong bao). The bigger the better.

Chinese New Year decorations are displayed in City Hall, malls and banks in various areas in Toronto at that time - including the malls I mentioned - with signs of transliterated chinese.

Food may be a problem for all religions due to health and sanitary reasons and quality control, but ask for decorations (including happy wishes written on red paper and lots of floral arrangements) and you should see them go up.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Not sure if you're aware of this....but we live in a Democracy.....where the majority of people decide the rules.....displaying a Christmas tree does not infringe on ANY ones rights.

Protect people from views like mine???? Unbelievable.....The same rights that allow a Christian to display a fricken Christmas tree......are the same rights that allow any other person or religious group to display any of their religious mumbo jumbo. But I guess you buy into the idea that Minorities should be allowed to tell the Majority what to do. Sounds like a dictatorship to me.....Anakin Skywalker.

Not sure if you're aware of this but our government in this democracy has measures in place to do the opposite of what you just said. It designed so the majority doesn't rule everyone. The government helps the minorities, so they don't get oppressed by the majority. If the majority always decided then the minorty would always lose out. The government protects the minorties. What your describing is called tyranny of the majority.

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Though the Rabbi went overboard, remember the Airport management chose to remove the decorations rather than try to find a compramise, open a dialogue, or include a reasonalbe sized chanukiah in it's display.

I suppose, but something tells me the airport just didn't want any hassle. Perhaps they should have pushed the issue a little more.

And as far as putting Jewish ornaments ints its display, I would disagree with that. They would be obvious religious symbols. Christmas trees are not.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

\
And yes.....my argument does fly.....we are not talking about human rights which are stipulated in the Charter.....we are talking about a God Damn festival celibration......people need to quit comparing a Christmas Tree to Human Rights......

In this case the Christmas tree represents religious freedom and equality.

Not sure if you're aware of this....but we live in a Democracy.....where the majority of people decide the rules.....displaying a Christmas tree does not infringe on ANY ones rights.

Right now, according to polls, the Liberals are in the majority, but the conservitives form the government. IIRC, less than half the population voted in the last election. Who decides the rules?

In the early 20th century the majority probably would have voted to not give women the right to vote - of course the women could not vote in that referendum. Is the majority still right?

Displaying a Christmas tree in a PUBLIC space does not infirnge on my rights - dismising my request for my symbol to be on display in the same public space can be contruded as discrimination.

Protect people from views like mine???? Unbelievable.....The same rights that allow a Christian to display a fricken Christmas tree......are the same rights that allow any other person or religious group to display any of their religious mumbo jumbo. But I guess you buy into the idea that Minorities should be allowed to tell the Majority what to do. Sounds like a dictatorship to me.....Anakin Skywalker.

Do what you want in your home or on your fromt lawn, but we are talking about PUBLIC space - the lobby of City Hall for example. I cannot just waltz into City Hall and put a chanukiah on the security desk, nor should I have to. City Hall took taxpayers (yours and Mine) money to the bay, bought decorations (that to me have a Christmas theme) and put them up. They should then have to take taxpayers money to Walmart, by a chanukiah (or a picture of one) and put it up. And, yes, they should then work their way down the list of ethnicities.

And, minorities tell the majority what to do all the time - with hiring quotas, women only gyms, traffic laws (one of the pedestrians or drivers is in the minority), etc.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Chinese New Year decorations are displayed in City Hall, malls and banks in various areas in Toronto at that time - including the malls I mentioned - with signs of transliterated chinese.

Food may be a problem for all religions due to health and sanitary reasons and quality control, but ask for decorations (including happy wishes written on red paper and lots of floral arrangements) and you should see them go up.

I'm pointing out the futility that is involved in including everyone. If I run a business and someone complained that they have an issue with my tree, instead of wasting time doing research on every minorities preference, I would rather just take it down. It has nothing to do with my displeasure toward other minority groups. Why? Honestly, I don't have time for this, and I would rather not dedicated my resources to something this trivial.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

\

According to the CIA factbook:

Roman Catholic 42.6%, Protestant 23.3% (including United Church 9.5%, Anglican 6.8%, Baptist 2.4%, Lutheran 2%), other Christian 4.4%, Muslim 1.9%, other and unspecified 11.8%, none 16% (2001 census

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/ca.html

That adds up to 120%
edit: missed the including part- so it's 70% Christian
That's more what I expected

And yes.....my argument does fly.....we are not talking about human rights which are stipulated in the Charter.....we are talking about a God Damn festival celibration......people need to quit comparing a Christmas Tree to Human Rights......

I'm not talking about the tree. I think complaining about the tree is stupid.
I'm talking about your quote in general terms, not in relation to Christmas trees.
You made a broad statement, that if people don't like something the majority likes, they can leave. That arguement can be applied to all sorts of human rights issues. If you were only talking about Christmas trees, you shouldn't have made such a braod statement.

Not sure if you're aware of this....but we live in a Democracy.....where the majority of people decide the rules.....

Not quite. You're missing a key ingrediant of our democracy. The majority decide the rules, however there are protections in place to protect the minority.
Therefore telling minorities, to deal with it or leave is not democratic. Maybe fascist

Protect people from views like mine???? Unbelievable.....The same rights that allow a Christian to display a fricken Christmas tree......are the same rights that allow any other person or religious group to display any of their religious mumbo jumbo. But I guess you buy into the idea that Minorities should be allowed to tell the Majority what to do. Sounds like a dictatorship to me.....Anakin Skywalker.

You missed it completely Emporer.

I'm not talking about tree or religious symbols. I agree people should be allowed to put up trees or whatever else. Majority, minority whatever...

It's your statement about accept it or leave that's my issue. That's not democratic at all, and if it's how you feel, perhaps you should leave.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Not sure if you're aware of this but our government in this democracy has measures in place to do the opposite of what you just said. It designed so the majority doesn't rule everyone. The government helps the minorities, so they don't get oppressed by the majority. If the majority always decided then the minorty would always lose out. The government protects the minorties. What your describing is called tyranny of the majority.

Like I inferred.....I am all for the Charter when it comes to Human Rights.....but not for Christmas Trees....what you are suggesting is Tyranny by the Minority.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Crazy Flamer

I suppose, but something tells me the airport just didn't want any hassle. Perhaps they should have pushed the issue a little more.

And as far as putting Jewish ornaments ints its display, I would disagree with that. They would be obvious religious symbols. Christmas trees are not.

that statement is an oxymoron. Christmas. Christian. see the similarities.
(pagan holiday studies,etc,etc....for the purposes of the 21st century Christians (secular or religious) have claimed Christmas as their holiday.)


My short unscientific office poll (4 Christians, 1 Jew, 1 Hindu, 1 half-Jewish half-Christian) showed that a pine tree with white lights only is a seasonal tree, not a Christmas tree. A pine tree with any of: coloured lights, presents underneath, or a star on top is a Christmas tree.

Would you see the chanukiah as a religious symbol or Jewish candleabra?
(I see a seasonal tree as a Christmas tree, regardless of the above definition)

[SpitFire40]

I don't believe in Christ but celebrate Christmas as a time to get together with family, eat some good food, drink some good drinks, put up the lights, ect.

It's celebrating winter really.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

I'm pointing out the futility that is involved in including everyone. If I run a business and someone complained that they have an issue with my tree, instead of wasting time doing research on every minorities preference, I would rather just take it down. It has nothing to do with my displeasure toward other minority groups. Why? Honestly, I don't have time for this, and I would rather not dedicated my resources to something this trivial.

Yet the national banks (amongst others) have staff for this or allow staff time to deal with this. Otherwise why would they bother?

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

that statement is an oxymoron. Christmas. Christian. see the similarities.
(pagan holiday studies,etc,etc....for the purposes of the 21st century Christians (secular or religious) have claimed Christmas as their holiday.)


My short unscientific office poll (4 Christians, 1 Jew, 1 Hindu, 1 half-Jewish half-Christian) showed that a pine tree with white lights only is a seasonal tree, not a Christmas tree. A pine tree with any of: coloured lights, presents underneath, or a star on top is a Christmas tree.

Would you see the chanukiah as a religious symbol or Jewish candleabra?
(I see a seasonal tree as a Christmas tree, regardless of the above definition)

Oh come on...So does that mean that Jews take offense to everyone named Christine or Christopher? Just because it has the pretext "Christ" does not mean its automaticaly religious.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Yet the national banks (amongst others) have staff for this or allow staff time to deal with this. Otherwise why would they bother?

It's good that they do bother with it. I'm sure they'll be pleased once the muslims demand that they honor ramadan in some symbolic form...or when the chinese start wondering why Mooncake festival isn't acknowledged, yet chinese new year is...or when the Hindus wonder why Deepavali is excluded. I mean, Toronto has, though a minor, but significant population of Muslims, Hindus, and chinese.

I'm sure they'll be ok with all that.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Ok we are both wrong....haha....The number in quotations is included in the Protastant category....then there is other Christian religions....so it is 70% no 80%....my bad.

I was talking about Christmas in general.....and the majority of Canadians do celebrate it in one way or another.

So is suing because someone doesn't have their decorations up either. Protecting minorities civil rights is key to the democratic process.....so is allowing the majority of ones citizens to practice their beliefs without discrimination of the minority.

Yaaa, we agree on something.

So you want the majority of Canadians to leave their own country because the minority doesn't agree with their beliefs???? Nice....real nice.

[Shawnski]

Holy cow....

Can't wait until next October when the Knights of Satan's Service, Local 666 demands to put up headless goats and hold live sacrifices of virgins at Chinook Mall.