Same sex marriage settled.. again.. 175-123

[jharp]

excellent post ben voyonsdonc. i appreciate your insight. I was saying a few posts ago that i thought i had heard everything about the debate... well you got me, i had never heard your side or even stopped to think about it.
i will most definately consider this now. thank you very much for helping to expand my understanding of the issue.

[jzA]

Originally Posted by jharp

excellent post ben voyonsdonc. i appreciate your insight. I was saying a few posts ago that i thought i had heard everything about the debate... well you got me, i had never heard your side or even stopped to think about it.
i will most definately consider this now. thank you very much for helping to expand my understanding of the issue.

*shakes head*

To each his own I guess.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Here's my story:


I want to live my life and feel accepted by society like anybody else. Separate is not equal. A civil union is not good enough because it creates a needless division between gays and lesbians and the straight society. I will never go to my old church and demand to be married there...I understand their right to disagree with gay marriage and would not want to have to deal with the disapproval. A religion can still only recognize only striaght marriages but the government does not have that right. A government is bound by the constitutional rights of its people and not by a particular dominant religion.

It would still be equal between gays and straights if they were all called civil unions. The government was wrong to take a religious tradition (not only a Christian one, but since our laws and customs are based largely on Western Christianity, its the most obvious), make it their own, and then change it to suit the prevailing views of a vocal sector of society at the expense of a less popular sector of society. The problem that now faces Churches is that because SSM is law, it can potentially be successfully argued that Churches are not abiding by the laws of this nation, and therefore should not be categorized as charitable organizations, and be forced to relinguish their tax freedoms... this would essentially crush every Church in Canada, save the Catholic Chuch, or, force them to acquiese, which is against everything we claim to stand for.

While this may be dismissed as a slippery slope argument by some, it is a significant legal threat that could easily be undertaken by gays with less tolerant views than yourself, who feel that true equality is forcing Churches to marry them.

I believe in your right to formally declare your love to someone, man or woman. I also believe in the right to religious independence. I think most people agree that the government has to adjust the marriage laws to protect and defend both. The word marriage should be stricken from legislation and replaced with civil union, for everyone.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

It would still be equal between gays and straights if they were all called civil unions. The government was wrong to take a religious tradition (not only a Christian one, but since our laws and customs are based largely on Western Christianity, its the most obvious), make it their own, and then change it to suit the prevailing views of a vocal sector of society at the expense of a less popular sector of society. The problem that now faces Churches is that because SSM is law, it can potentially be successfully argued that Churches are not abiding by the laws of this nation, and therefore should not be categorized as charitable organizations, and be forced to relinguish their tax freedoms... this would essentially crush every Church in Canada, save the Catholic Chuch, or, force them to acquiese, which is against everything we claim to stand for.

I believe in your right to formally declare your love to someone, man or woman. I also believe in the right to religious independence. I think most people agree that the government has to adjust the marriage laws to protect and defend both. The word marriage should be stricken from legislation and replaced with civil union, for everyone.

I understand where you are coming from. However, it is specifically written in the legislation that any Church can refuse to marry gays and lesbians if it goes against their religious beliefs. There was a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada to see if this legislation would contravene either the rights of gays and lesbians or the religious rights of the Churches who refused to marry gays and lesbians. The Supreme Court ruled that no it did not contravene the rights of gays and lesbians nor did it infringe upon the religious rights of the Churches. So there is no threat to religious bodies.

I appreciate that you are trying to come up with a solution that is equal and fair but I think that abolishing civil marriages is a little overly dramatic. It is kind of like amputating a broken arm instead of trying to heal it.

I think that marriage is not only a religious and a civil institution. It is also a societal institution. A few months after I came out to my Mom, she told me that afterwards she cried for a few hours because she was afraid I was going to be hurt...I personally think she was also crying because her dream of me getting married was dead. She is the kind of person who could watch that awful "Wedding Story" on TLC for 4 hours consecutively. Marriage has become more than simply a goverment or a religious term...it has become deeply ingrained in our society has led to atheists, agnostics, and believers alike to be married. If we abolish civil marriage, those who don't want to be married in a Church/synagogue/mosque but want to be recognized as married would be denied that recognition.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by jharp

excellent post ben voyonsdonc. i appreciate your insight. I was saying a few posts ago that i thought i had heard everything about the debate... well you got me, i had never heard your side or even stopped to think about it.
i will most definately consider this now. thank you very much for helping to expand my understanding of the issue.

My pleasure. I bet somebody you know is probably struggling right now with many of the same issues that I have dealt with.

PM me if you have any questions!

[daveyboy]

Thanks for sharing your story. So many people with different backgrounds from different situations all share a similar story. Putting those three little words together and coming out was probably the hardest thing I ever did, at the same time it was also one of the most empowering things I've ever done.

It saddens me to see that there is still homophobia so rampant in our society, especially in this thread.

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Here's my story:

I am a gay man. I am just like every straight guy out there... I like hockey, football and other typical "guy" things. However, I don't feel any sexual attraction to women. I don't have HIV and am not any more promiscuous than any straight guy. I have known that I am gay for a long time but it took me a long time to be able to put those three little words together...I AM GAY.

One of the main reasons it took me so long to come to grips with my sexuality is that when I was 17 I became a born again Christian. As a result, I have a pretty good understanding of how Christians feel about homosexuality. As a result, I have lost my faith in many Christians but I haven't lost my faith in God. I have moved away from formal Christianity to a more personal relationship with Christ.

I always worried about how my family would feel about me after I told them. After coming out to one of my friends he told me "You have always been a good son to your Mom, you have always been a good brother to your brother and sister...after you tell them you are gay they will see that you are still a good son and a good brother but you will be a good gay son and a good gay brother." He was right. My family and friends still love me for me and not for my sexuality. It took them a while to "get it" but my realationships have been stronger than ever with them.

This post is getting long!! Anyways, I am just like everyone else on this board...except the Oiler fans...those guys are the real degenerates!

I want to live my life and feel accepted by society like anybody else. Separate is not equal. A civil union is not good enough because it creates a needless division between gays and lesbians and the straight society. I will never go to my old church and demand to be married there...I understand their right to disagree with gay marriage and would not want to have to deal with the disapproval. A religion can still only recognize only striaght marriages but the government does not have that right. A government is bound by the constitutional rights of its people and not by a particular dominant religion.

Thanks for reading my long post. I would be happy to answer any of your questions about my experience.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Just because some people are against same sex marriage....doesn't mean they are homophobic.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Just because some people are against same sex marriage....doesn't mean they are homophobic.

Quite true. It just means that they think it is okay to discriminate against them.

I *really* wish the Liberals, NDP and Bloc had voted to renew the debate. It allows Canadians to separate the tolerant from the intolerant much easier.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Quite true. It just means that they think it is okay to discriminate against them.

I *really* wish the Liberals, NDP and Bloc had voted to renew the debate. It allows Canadians to separate the tolerant from the intolerant much easier.

You should really watch yourself with words like discriminate. Quebec is equal but different and I recognize that, does that mean I discriminate against Quebecers? Or is it Quebec that discriminates against the rest of us?

As well, do we really want tolerance, or acceptance? Because I think the majority of Canadians will tolerate gays but that doesn't mean they all accept them. People will tolerate gay marriage (we have to, don't we?) but that doesn't mean we'll agree with it or accept it.

What about gays being intolerant of religion? Why is it only discrimination one way and not the other?

[vanisleflamesfan]

Originally Posted by jharp

i understand what you mean, and i am sure that there are a tone of people like your friend out there. this is fine, i understand that. i do think it is wrong, but what can i do about it? it is not my place to tell people what to do or think.
having said that, the point i am trying to get across is that i think it is wrong to allow gay couples to adopt kids. i think this is wrong, as well as unfair to the children. being raised in a gay home would make it seem much more acceptable to be gay and would also lead to the things that i bolded in your post. i would not want to be abused and made fun of in school for having two daddys.

Wow... just wow... I don't even know where to begin with this one... but I will take a stab at it:

And just what, exactly, would be wrong with the teaching, development, and promotion of TOLERANCE?!?! Some people are gay. Get over it, accept it, learn to deal with it. I will teach MY children that it is acceptable to be gay. I will teach them to accept EVERYONE who might be different from them; gay, straight, black, white, conservative...

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FireFly

What about gays being intolerant of religion? Why is it only discrimination one way and not the other?

Never heard of gays trying to keep straight people from marrying. Have you?

[jharp]

Originally Posted by vanisleflamesfan

Wow... just wow... I don't even know where to begin with this one... but I will take a stab at it:

And just what, exactly, would be wrong with the teaching, development, and promotion of TOLERANCE?!?! Some people are gay. Get over it, accept it, learn to deal with it. I will teach MY children that it is acceptable to be gay. I will teach them to accept EVERYONE who might be different from them; gay, straight, black, white, conservative...

in the event i ever find a wife (and believe me i know my beliefs might be an issue) and have kids, i will also attempt to teach them tolerance. my neck isnt as red might be portrayed in this thread.
i do not want my kids to run around and try to beat up people who are different then them, that is not what this is about at all. in no way am i trying to say that being gay is a disease or anything like that. i would not round them up and cook them, i am not a nazi like your post reads.
like i have said many times in this thread, my concern here is for the kids. while i do not understand the idea of being gay, i am sure they are good people who could raise a child well if everything else was equal. however, things are by no means equal. try explaining to your friends about your daddy's. i think that most kids would be freaked out about it. being raised my gay parents would be a sever disadvantage to children. this is the issue to me.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by jharp

in the event i ever find a wife (and believe me i know my beliefs might be an issue) and have kids, i will also attempt to teach them tolerance. my neck isnt as red might be portrayed in this thread.
i do not want my kids to run around and try to beat up people who are different then them, that is not what this is about at all. in no way am i trying to say that being gay is a disease or anything like that. i would not round them up and cook them, i am not a nazi like your post reads.
like i have said many times in this thread, my concern here is for the kids. while i do not understand the idea of being gay, i am sure they are good people who could raise a child well if everything else was equal. however, things are by no means equal. try explaining to your friends about your daddy's. i think that most kids would be freaked out about it. being raised my gay parents would be a sever disadvantage to children. this is the issue to me.

Coming from a seperated/broken home is also a disadvantage, but that's considered just fine. Your opinion on this matter isn't based on much else other then discrimination.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by jharp

in the event i ever find a wife (and believe me i know my beliefs might be an issue) and have kids, i will also attempt to teach them tolerance. my neck isnt as red might be portrayed in this thread.
i do not want my kids to run around and try to beat up people who are different then them, that is not what this is about at all. in no way am i trying to say that being gay is a disease or anything like that. i would not round them up and cook them, i am not a nazi like your post reads.
like i have said many times in this thread, my concern here is for the kids. while i do not understand the idea of being gay, i am sure they are good people who could raise a child well if everything else was equal. however, things are by no means equal. try explaining to your friends about your daddy's. i think that most kids would be freaked out about it. being raised my gay parents would be a sever disadvantage to children. this is the issue to me.

Why aren't they equal? I would like to see you prove this point as it is what you are basing your argument on.

[jharp]

Originally Posted by llama64

Coming from a seperated/broken home is also a disadvantage, but that's considered just fine. Your opinion on this matter isn't based on much else other then discrimination.

is that what it is.. oh, i always wondered what that hate in the back of my mind was all these years...
by no means do i think coming from a broken home is a good thing. children from these homes have much more difficult lives.
so becuase some children have it rough, is it ok for other to have it bad as well?
we should try to avoid situations that place children in compromising situations. if it is discriminatory to want to protect kids... quilty as charged.

[jharp]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Why aren't they equal? I would like to see you prove this point as it is what you are basing your argument on.

societal perceptions.
i know.. it is people like me propogating these beliefs.. yaya. change everyone elses opinions and i will drop it.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by jharp

societal perceptions.
i know.. it is people like me propogating these beliefs.. yaya. change everyone elses opinions and i will drop it.

Well, it you agree there is no proof, then why aren't you willing to change your opinion? "Everyone" starts with you.

[Winsor_Pilates]

IMO,The jury is still out on gays being parents.
I don't there has been enough research to see what kind of effect this does have on kids for me to support or not support it.

People are naturally supposed to have a mom and dad, and in cases where they don't, things sometimes are harder and go wrong.
IF having gay parents is more likely to make kids without all the right ingredients, then I'm not sure I could support it.

[jharp]

ok, here is a challange:
prove my opinions wrong.
i ask this for two reason.
1) know thy enemy
2) i am not so narrow minded as to have closed the issue in my mind or any other. i always strive to expand my horizons so if anyone has something of value to add, please do.
thanks

[jzA]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

IMO,The jury is still out on gays being parents.
I don't there has been enough research to see what kind of effect this does have on kids for me to support or not support it.

People are naturally supposed to have a mom and dad, and in cases where they don't, things sometimes are harder and go wrong.
IF having gay parents is more likely to make kids without all the right ingredients, then I'm not sure I could support it.

Could you imagine a kid walking in on his 2 daddys making love, uggghh.

There is no way I could ever support this. If it did it would be a sad day, a day in which i move to a different country... Maybe australia?