Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Go4Gold

Well this should be their (UN) time to shine, Isreal was created by the UN and it's time for them to step up to the plate and take control.

Then you don't understand how the UN works. The UN has no real power because individual counties are sovereign nations and the UN only gets anything done when it's security council agrees to gang up on someone. Otherwise, the UN is totally powerless as an organzation.

Look at what happened in Bosnia, etc. Even as both sides were viciously killing each other and as the Serbians were committing massive massacres and ethnic cleansings - the UN "Peacekeepers" had been there for years. They had units, trooops, weapons, etc. but they had to stand by the sidelines and watch helplessless because they couldn't get any authorization to act from their leaders or the UN. It's impossible to enter into a conflict zone and be neutral. Eventually you will be seen as "taking a side".

World politics is not lovey-dovy. Diplomacy is just another word for "postponement of the inevitable" The UN is a flaccid and powerless organization. The middle east has been doing things this way for 50 years, it's nothing new or anything to be surprised by. Otherwise this would have all been over years ago during the Arab-Isreali conflict. This is childsplay compared to that.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Azure

I guess it took Lanny to give you confidence. At least he can defend himself; you look to others for your viewpoint.

A guy has to come home from work, sorry but i missed a 1 hour window of posting. I defended myself fine before Lanny showed up, and even then, he isn't really supporting me either, just providing his own viewpoint.

Look, you told me to drop the Anti-americanism...so I did. So why don't we talk politics instead of attacking me some more?

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Regorium

First of all, I've made an intelligent argument. As Lanny pointed out, instability in oil prices benefits the massive oil corporations. The only ones that suffer are you and me: the consumer. We feel that there is no benefit in increasing oil prices, but absolutely, they do. Hell, in Alberta, you should know this more than anything.

Second of all, I'd like to state that i don't agree with Harper. I think that yes, Israel is entitled to self-defence, but really, is what they're doing right now self defence? You know, bombing the airport, tv stations, and all that. So far, 55 civilians have been killed, no mention of the hundreds wounded. How long must this go on? Should we just drop a nuclear bomb on them in the name of self-defence?

Still, the solution to this? It's almost impossible. The soldiers must be returned, but how are you going to ask for that when you've just claimed 55 lives in the first couple hours of conflict? Someone has to give first, and Israel is in the position of power. They have to walk the high ground yet again, and appeal for international support. I think that they need to win back the support of the international community that's deserted them in the face of the atrocious retaliations in order to have any pull in the hearts of the Lebanese and Palestinian people.

I would suggest you search for "Beruit, Lebanon" on google earth (download it) and scroll over to their airport. You can't miss it.

Zoom in, and look at whats around the airport. AA guns. Everywhere.

Most civilian airports.. such as calgary, don't have AA guns kicking around.

I know they live in a hostile region, but still. Its a legitimate target. Same with the bridges, their excuse is that it prevents the transfer of the captured soldier(s). Potentially, having the same effect as preventing the reienforcements from neighbouring countries by bombing major arteries suchs as the Lebanon-Syria highway bridge should they choose to involve themselves.

The TV stations? meh... propoganda. Everyone does this when attacking another country. See US invades Iraq. and almost every other conflict.

Who cares if the U.S. didn't back a RESOLUTION .. that means ****. 3 other countries veto'd it also. You thing Israel would stop? I think they've been constantly pushed (By the loads of rockets fired into their country for years) and they have finally said enough and stuck back.. hard.

If Syria and Iran want to get involved, they know the US is going to whoop ass too and jump at the opportunity to do so. So they know to be smart about how involved they want to get because any involvement from those countries (part of the axis of evil.. according to bush) would result in US military support of israel.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Regorium

A guy has to come home from work, sorry but i missed a 1 hour window of posting. I defended myself fine before Lanny showed up, and even then, he isn't really supporting me either, just providing his own viewpoint.

Look, you told me to drop the Anti-americanism...so I did. So why don't we talk politics instead of attacking me some more?

Fine then. But you don't have any credibility in any of your posts, considering how you ruined it from the start.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Regorium

... we're going to cut off food and all supplies to 4 million people, bomb their airport so they can't get out, destroy the TV stations so they don't get any news. Who's the real terrorist here?

I'd like to see the Israeli supporters address this point. Do you see nothing wrong with the disproportional response or collective punishment?

In what universe is it acceptable to punish literally millions of innocent people for the actions of a few? Lets not pretend that the majority of Lebanon's citizens, especially those in Beirut, would not have wanted Hezbollah to kidnap anyone. Hezbollah is not the elected government of Lebanon, (they are in fact funded by Iran), they are not acting on the 'wishes' of the Lebanese people.

If collective punishment is fine, then there should be nothing wrong with holding all Israelis or all Americans responsible for the actions of their governments and 'collectively punishing' them by striking at them and their infrastructure. Terrorism is terrorism whether it is done by a terrorist group or is state sanctioned. Blockading a whole country and blowing up infrastructure such as airports and electric stations is meant to terrorize the citizens.

Should Hamas and Hezbollah strike at Israel and America until its citizens turn on their government and make them stop their actions?

It's laughable to suggest Israel is defending itself. Defending itself by punishing the whole citizenry collectively? Look at the death toll on each side. Which side has suffered the highest civilian loss? Why does it always seem that a Palestinian or Lebanese life is less valuable than an Israeli life?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I'd like to see the Israeli supporters address this point. Do you see nothing wrong with the disproportional response or collective punishment?

Of course there's something wrong with it. I'd be foolish to argue that. However the governent has backed the Hezbollah in Lebanon and allowed them to set up camps through out that country. If they would have shown the least bit of interest in squashing this terrorist groups then Israel would probably be more then willing to work with them. However because of Lebanon's gov't policy, that country becomes a legit target. Its a case of politics causing harm to the civilian population. Its the same story in Palestine, where a member of the Hamas group kidnapped the soldier, and the government has done crap to difuse the situation besides demanding a ceasefire and demanding a negotiated settlement without producing the soldier.

In war all civilians are victims, but don't make Israel assume the full burden of the blame here. The government's of Lebanon and Palestine had ample opportunities to clean up this mess, and they've failed to do it. Beyond that Israel has always tried to trade land for piece, and everytime they've been the victim of more terrorist strikes against them. This is the logical response to a group of beligerant governments that have basically winked at acts of terrorism and murder against Israel.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

In what universe is it acceptable to punish literally millions of innocent people for the actions of a few? Lets not pretend that the majority of Lebanon's citizens, especially those in Beirut, would not have wanted Hezbollah to kidnap anyone. Hezbollah is not the elected government of Lebanon, (they are in fact funded by Iran), they are not acting on the 'wishes' of the Lebanese people.

I'm going to turn this around and ask in what universe is it acceptable for Israel to sit back and watch its people killed and kidnapped in acts of state sponsored terrorism. Its irrelevant that the average citizens would not have wanted the kidnappings to occur, since thier governments sat back and allowed it to happen while providing aid and comfort to these groups. If Lebanon wanted to defuse this situation, they would arrest the head of the Hezbollah and hold him until the soldiers are returned. With the Hamas, the Israeli's are targeting the leaders of the militant wing of the Hamas, is that not a legitimate action?

Originally Posted by longsuffering

If collective punishment is fine, then there should be nothing wrong with holding all Israelis or all Americans responsible for the actions of their governments and 'collectively punishing' them by striking at them and their infrastructure. Terrorism is terrorism whether it is done by a terrorist group or is state sanctioned. Blockading a whole country and blowing up infrastructure such as airports and electric stations is meant to terrorize the citizens.

Funny, but isn't that what happens everyday, where the government and all of American's are held responsible by these radical groups. For the most part 9/11 targeted civilians, not the government. And your taking a simplistic view. Hezbollah threatened to transport thier hostages to Iran, so Israel took out the airport. And they targetted the electrical stations to slow down response times. If they truly wanted to sow terror, they'd do cluster bombings into schools hospitals and houses, and Israel could fight a pretty effective counter civilian war, but they haven't. It would be easy for Israel for fire several thousand shells into neighbourhoods, but they don't. They leave it to the lunatics in Hamas and Hezbollah to dp that

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Should Hamas and Hezbollah strike at Israel and America until its citizens turn on their government and make them stop their actions?

Haven't the been doing that against unarmed civillians in Israel for years? Didn't other radical Islamics do that to American Civilian's in 9/11?

Originally Posted by longsuffering

It's laughable to suggest Israel is defending itself. Defending itself by punishing the whole citizenry collectively? Look at the death toll on each side. Which side has suffered the highest civilian loss? Why does it always seem that a Palestinian or Lebanese life is less valuable than an Israeli life?

How in the hell are they not defending themselves. They withdrew from territories in exchange for peace agreements that these nutcases plowed right through with rockets, and C4 vests. They tried to build a wall, and everyone complained. And now members of terrorist groups supported by thier respective governments went into territories and kidnapped or killed thier citizen's. What in the hell are they suppossed to do? You can't negotiate with these governments and these groups because thier not trustworthy, and seem to prefer murder to statesman ship. Yes its sad that Palestine lives are lost, yes its sad that Israeli lives are lost. But who's the greater catylests in these deaths. Hamas and Hezbollah, and the governments (Palestine, Lebanon, Iran and others) who support them. Go ahead and keep hating Israel, but the bottom line is they've been continually pushed and prodded, and measured reponses haven't worked, diplomatic responses haven't worked, and even heavy responses haven't worked. But its the culture of ignorance and hate, spawned in thier enemies that are causing the majority of the problems in these regions and not Israel who has a right to exist as mandated by the UN.

[Azure]

Maybe you should look at who started this war, and who kidnapped Israeli troops.

Then you'll have your answer of who is responsible for this war.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Should Hamas and Hezbollah strike at Israel and America until its citizens turn on their government and make them stop their actions?

Should Israel strike at Lebanon and Palestine until its citizens turn on their government and make them stop their actions?

Sure seems like trading land for peace doesn't work... sure seems like the Peace Process (by Clinton) didn't work...

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Why does it always seem that a Palestinian or Lebanese life is less valuable than an Israeli life?

I don't think it is... but it's the Palestinians (and others) that decide they want to blow themselves up.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The government's of Lebanon and Palestine had ample opportunities to clean up this mess, and they've failed to do it.

Firstly, thanks for the taking the time to put together a well thought response.

I can't agree with your statement. Saying the government of Lebanon had ample opportunity to clean up this mess (control Hezbollah) is like saying the US government has had ample time to clean up organized crime, or gang activities, the drug problem, or inner city poverty. No government can be expected to control all of its citizens.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

With the Hamas, the Israeli's are targeting the leaders of the militant wing of the Hamas, is that not a legitimate action?

To a point, yes. But I'd like to see Israel try to mitigate 'collateral damage'.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Funny, but isn't that what happens everyday, where the government and all of American's are held responsible by these radical groups. For the most part 9/11 targeted civilians, not the government.

Haven't the been doing that against unarmed civillians in Israel for years? Didn't other radical Islamics do that to American Civilian's in 9/11?

I don't think it does happen every day. Again, take a look at the death toll. More Palestinians are killed as a result of Israeli military actions than Israelis are killed by suicide bombers.

Of course 9/11 was a terrible, terrible thing, but other than the (heavy) emotional toll, it didn't affect most peoples ability to exist. By taking out roads, airports, electrical and water plants, and putting in a Naval blockade, people in Lebanon and Palestine don't even have access to the basic requirments of life.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

How in the hell are they not defending themselves. They withdrew from territories in exchange for peace agreements that these nutcases plowed right through with rockets, and C4 vests.

Punishing a whole citizenry is hardly a defensive act.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But who's the greater catylests in these deaths. Hamas and Hezbollah, and the governments (Palestine, Lebanon, Iran and others) who support them. Go ahead and keep hating Israel, but the bottom line is they've been continually pushed and prodded, and measured reponses haven't worked, diplomatic responses haven't worked, and even heavy responses haven't worked. But its the culture of ignorance and hate, spawned in thier enemies that are causing the majority of the problems in these regions and not Israel who has a right to exist as mandated by the UN.

I would argue that the disproportional response is the catylst for many of the problems and it is what spawns the "culture of ignorance and hate". If your family is collateral damage in an Israeli rocket or tank attack, or you don't have food, water or electricity, who are you going to hate?

Of course Hezbollah and Hamas are wrong. I'm not one of those who suggest they 'have no other choice" or it's the only means available to them but I can't accept that Israel should receive a free pass for everything they do.

[FlamesAddiction]

FOX news reported that Israel is claiming that Iran hurled a missile at Haifa.

Of course, it is FOX and I haven't seen it reported anywhere else. They are probably just trying to sensationalize things for ratings.

[Bleeding Red]

A few notes culled from today's Canada.com News:

1 - Humanitarian aid - food, water, medicine - is being distributed in Gaza. The 'basics' are being delivered. In the same token, humanitarian aid will get through in Lebanon.

2- Israel does all it can to avoid civilian casualties - "The raid came just a few hours after Israeli planes dropped leaflets in South Beirut warning residents to avoid areas where Hezbollah operates." - similar measures were taken in Gaza before that offensive.

3- Israel tried the diplomatic approach in Gaza - backroom negitiations went on for almost a week before the incursion. Israel refused to trade Shalit for almost five hundred "violent criminals" (yes, yes, to a few here one man's criminal is another man's political prisoner). How do you negotiate with terrorists? If these groups are all disjointed, then who do you negotiate with?

4 - Hezbolah is more than just a rag-tag fundamentalist group in Lebanon - Hezbolah "holds seats in the Lebanese legislature." Surely they have some links to the kidnappers to convince them to return the hostages. However, the Lebanese Government did take some action - "The Lebanese government insisted it had no prior knowledge of the move and did not condone it -- and even withdrew its ambassador to the United States after he made comments seemingly in support of the guerrillas."

5- Looks like Egypt and Saudi Arabia have decided who is to blame:

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=c5a49da8-ff49-4502-9502-226125d95ec5&k=68955

"Egypt launched a diplomatic bid to resolve the crisis, amid apparent frustration among moderate Arab countries that Hezbollah -- and by implication its top ally Syria -- had started the fight with Israel.

Saudi Arabia, the Arab world's political heavyweight and economic powerhouse, accused Hezbollah guerrillas -- without naming them -- of "uncalculated adventures'' that precipitated the latest Middle East crisis.

"The kingdom sees that it is time for those elements to alone shoulder the full responsibility for this irresponsible behavior and that the burden of ending the crisis falls on them alone,'' said a Saudi official quoted by the Saudi Press Agency."


A part of the problem not mentioned is that the PA and the Labanese govm't refuse to try to disarm militants fearing internal civil war, nor have they tried to incorporate them into any official military - the PA has a 10,000 member police force/army - and take responsibility for them. At some point someone pulls the strings - these are not just two or three guys with AK-47s who decided one morning 'Hey, let's go get us a Zionist dog to torture!" - someone is in control - finding that someone is the hard part, but the pressure is mounting on the PA & Lebanese gov't to find them and set them straight.

[Azure]

I heard on CBS news that the US has sent Marines into to get US civilians out of Beruit.

I think they said Beruit.

I guess since Israel bombed the airport.

[North East Goon]

I know if this escalates all will be asking the United States to get involved. When will China start living up to their end of the superpower bargain? Arent they the nation that has the most oil interests at stake in this region?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by North East Goon

I know if this escalates all will be asking the United States to get involved. When will China start living up to their end of the superpower bargain? Arent they the nation that has the most oil interests at stake in this region?

Not only Oil interests, but economic interests in general.

Another update on the situation....

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...ubContrassID=0

Israel imposes sea and air blockade on Lebanon
Hezbollah: Hassan Nasrallah unhurt in IAF strike in Beirut
BEIRUT - Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah was not hurt in an Israel Air Force strike that destroyed a main Hezbollah office in Beirut's southern suburb, the group announced Friday night.

"Hezbollah's secretary-general, family and bodyguards are safe and sound," a Hezbollah statement said. Nasrallah's residence and office were destroyed in the attack.

It gave no word on casualties in the latest of several raids on Hizbollah's stronghold of Haret Hreik.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Things not getting any better..........Israel kills 32 civilians.

Israel killed at least 32 civilians on Saturday, including 15 children, in air strikes meant to punish Lebanon for letting Hizbollah guerrillas menace the Jewish state's northern border.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/15072006/...r-strikes.html

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Lebanon a 'disaster zone'.

Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora on Saturday declared Israeli attacks had turned his country into a "disaster zone".


Siniora calling for an immediate cease-fire and international help to stop attacks from what he called Israel's "war machine," according to CNN's translation.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html

[White Doors]

Israel is sending a message to Lebanon to get rid of Hezbolah. They are also sending a message to Syria and Iran to stop arming them. Here's hoping they succeed and quick.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Israel is sending a message to Lebanon to get rid of Hezbolah. They are also sending a message to Syria and Iran to stop arming them. Here's hoping they succeed and quick.

Here's hoping they stop killing innocent people and bullying the governments of their neighbours.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Here's hoping they stop killing innocent people and bullying the governments of their neighbours.

Oh! Is that what they are doing? Silly me, I thought they were defending their country from people determined to destroy it.
My bad!

Sheesh!

[White Doors]

Isn't it interesting how the left-wingers will defend the governments of countries that are dicatorships, but won't defend the government of the only viable democracy in the region.

The left really DOES hate the west. I always thought so, but conflicts like this only go to prove it.