"Toronto Terror Plot Foiled" CNN News

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

You took that line completely out of context. Here, I'll demonstrate...
What? That's terrible! How could you say such a thing?

Here, I'll post the complete sentance.

As long as Islam still teaches their people that the west has humiliated the followers of the religion, and the west deserves to be punished, these things will continue to happen.

So WTF is that saying?

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

So WTF is that saying?

I read that as :

"As long as Islam still teaches their people that ... the west deserves to be punished, these things will continue to happen."

Just take out the clause in the middle.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I read that as :

"As long as Islam still teaches their people that ... the west deserves to be punished, these things will continue to happen."

Just take out the clause in the middle.

Yeah, this is how I read it.

I re-read Lanny's post a number of times and couldn't figure out where the heck Azure was getting that.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Yeah, this is how I read it.

I re-read Lanny's post a number of times and couldn't figure out where the heck Azure was getting that.

Fox News?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

And what do you suggest the prevention of this? Is your suggestion applied to Christians as well? How about Jews? Or is this just an Islamic religion problem?

Yes, it is a larger problem in Islam right now than it is with Christians or Jews. If you can't see that you are blind.

I am against the Iraq war, I can't stand GWB, and I completely understand there is some causal relationship between western foreign policy and terrorism. The thing is, these kids were Canadian. And the same thing is happening in the UK, and elsewhere. You can't just close your eyes to the fact that many Muslims around the world are being drawn into extremism. And violent extremism at that.

So what's the solution? Obviously we can't outlaw a religion, and we shouldn't. But, maybe its time to closely monitor what's happening at these learning centres. I mean, if there's nothing illegal going on, they have nothing to worry about. The best solution is for the religion to police itself. The muslim community has to take back its religion and be vigilant about what's going on in its ranks. But if that's not happening, what other choice is there? I don't like having to resort to authoritarian methods, but WTF? What else can we do? There is obviously certain trends occuring in the muslim community, and until the community itself starts taking huge steps to eradicate these types of trends, people are naturally going to be skeptical of them.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Igottago

The best solution is for the religion to police itself. The muslim community has to take back its religion and be vigilant about what's going on in its ranks. But if that's not happening, what other choice is there? I don't like having to resort to authoritarian methods, but WTF? What else can we do? There is obviously certain trends occuring in the muslim community, and until the community itself starts taking huge steps to eradicate these types of trends, people are naturally going to be skeptical of them.

Did you catch Duncan's post - #71

He had been reported by Mosque members for his radical teachings.

So it appears that the community helped in this case. I hope more communities rally to remove the zealots. That is the only real way that change will occur. I worry that if we become more authoritarian it will only generate more ill will.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

So it appears that the community helped in this case. I hope more communities rally to remove the zealots. That is the only real way that change will occur. I worry that if we become more authoritarian it will only generate more ill will.

You're right, that's the danger with the authoritarian tactics. Like I said, its really sad that these things even have to be considered. But what if the extremism gains momentum? At some point you have to worry about public safety as well. Is there some middle ground between respecting religious freedom and maintaining a watchful eye on potential security risks?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I read that as :

"As long as Islam still teaches their people that ... the west deserves to be punished, these things will continue to happen."

Just take out the clause in the middle.

Boom!

*feels like an idiot*

Sorry guys, I honestly mis-read it. Bring on all the insults!

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

So it appears that the community helped in this case. I hope more communities rally to remove the zealots. That is the only real way that change will occur. I worry that if we become more authoritarian it will only generate more ill will.

It's a difficult situation for the muslim community. If they're proactive and they alert the police about extremists who they feel are potential terrorists, and arrests are made, then the only thing that gets play in the news is that Islamic extremists were plotting something, and mosques get vandalized as a result. Because of the backlash, they might take the approach of simply hoping that it'll go away or that they can handle it themselves. If, in this case, the community was involved in getting these guys arrested, then they deserve kudos; I hadn't heard that this was the case though. I've heard a couple muslim spokespersons deny that the activities of these men had anything to do with terrorism--an approach that's extremely counterproductive for the community.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by Igottago

You're right, that's the danger with the authoritarian tactics. Like I said, its really sad that these things even have to be considered. But what if the extremism gains momentum? At some point you have to worry about public safety as well. Is there some middle ground between respecting religious freedom and maintaining a watchful eye on potential security risks?

I think the blanket tactics will bring about no good outcome in the long term, but rather, create a short term solution, while anger and bitterness grows for their particular community making things worse in the long run.

I think a good place to look for answers to the question of why homegrown citizens find it necessary to do this to their own country would be local groups in Northen Ireland.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

I think a good place to look for answers to the question of why homegrown citizens find it necessary to do this to their own country would be local groups in Northen Ireland.

I'm no expert on Ireland, but isn't that conflict more about Irish nationalists vs. unionists, loyal to the United Kingdom? I know there are some religious overtones as well, but I'm not sure if its really comprable to what's going on with young muslims in the west. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

I think a good place to look for answers to the question of why homegrown citizens find it necessary to do this to their own country would be local groups in Northen Ireland.

That Ireland thing is about "get out of here and let us run our own show" kind of thing. These loons in Ontario aren't trying to take over Scarborough.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Yes, it is a larger problem in Islam right now than it is with Christians or Jews. If you can't see that you are blind.

I acknowledge that its a larger problem in Islam but I think you may be a little blinded by your own cultural bias and the fear being spun by the media. The market on religiosity is not cornered by any one particular religion. Politics is finding its way into religious sermons across the board. Hate is being taught across the board. How each deals with that hate is the bone of contention.

I see the issue as Islam being hundreds of years behind the curve. They don't have the constructs to allow them to fight economically or geo-politically for what they want. The Christians and Jews have this advantage and it is humiliating to the muslims that they don't. They lash out any way they can, and that is through isolated poorly organized acts of terrorism.

The Christians and Jews have developed the ability to project their hatred in accepted forms of violence, called policing and war. They are the big boys with the big toys and it allows them to channel this learned hatred into bodies that do their bidding for them. Only when those bodies don't do the work they desire do you see the extremeists act out. Its amazing what organized military and para-military organization can do for the people. If the Islamists ever get their way, and manage to organize a military under the banner of the "Islamic Nation", then we'll see a balancing of the playing field IMO and a stability develop. Until then I think you're going to see a continuance of the terrorist tactics as its the best tool the Islamists presently have at their disposal.

So what's the solution? Obviously we can't outlaw a religion, and we shouldn't. But, maybe its time to closely monitor what's happening at these learning centres.

Starting with Regent Univeristy???

I agree with what you are saying. IMO, education should be secular. The minute spirituality comes into play the concept of education goes out the window. Education is supposed to be about opening one's mind to new ideas and seeing the potential for things you don't understand. Religion is about closing ones mind and accepting a construct that explains away the things you don't understand. Religion is a divider, not a uniter, so it has no place in the educational system IMO.

I mean, if there's nothing illegal going on, they have nothing to worry about. The best solution is for the religion to police itself. The muslim community has to take back its religion and be vigilant about what's going on in its ranks. But if that's not happening, what other choice is there? I don't like having to resort to authoritarian methods, but WTF? What else can we do? There is obviously certain trends occuring in the muslim community, and until the community itself starts taking huge steps to eradicate these types of trends, people are naturally going to be skeptical of them.

But how can you take the religion back? How do you call out the leader and say he's wrong when that is a transgression against the fundamentals of the religion? Why don't Evangelicals call out their leaders when they do un-Christian things? It's hard to police one when you allow the other to do the same things you perscute the others for. The differnce is that when Pat Robertson calls for the assassination of foreign leader the expectation is that the government (military, CIA, etc.) will hear his sermon and do something about it (likely nothing in the short term as that's not the way our systems are set up). When a Islamic cleric says something, there is no government to listen, only his flock. The desperation builds until someone within the flock acts out (in the short term as there is no long term promise for the Islamists).

I don't condone their actions, but I do understand them. They are pathetic attempts to change the world by lashing out. They are like a three year old in a mall, kicking and screaming for someone to notice them, when they don't get what they want. The only solution is to curb the behavior through education and reinforcement. Repeated beatings does nothing to discourage the behavior and is counter-productive to them growing into good citizens. I like the tough love stance, but it does have to used in concert with education and reinforcement of positive behaviors.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That Ireland thing is about "get out of here and let us run our own show" kind of thing. These loons in Ontario aren't trying to take over Scarborough.

That's a good point.

Something needs to be done though when a group of people were planning on attacking Canada's financial heart (TSX), best known landmark (Peace Tower), and brain and heart of the country's intelligence (CSIS HQ) in one coordinated attack.

Clearly, there is no distinction in these extremists' minds between Canada and the United States.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Boom!

*feels like an idiot*

Sorry guys, I honestly mis-read it. Bring on all the insults!

Naaaaah! We all mis-read things from time-to-time. I'm not sure how you got what you did out of it, but hey, it was a mistake.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That Ireland thing is about "get out of here and let us run our own show" kind of thing. These loons in Ontario aren't trying to take over Scarborough.

True. However, back in the 70s and 80s, there were some Irish Americans (born in the USA) in Boston who helped the IRA. It's sort of the same thing. The connection to a homeland is still there.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That Ireland thing is about "get out of here and let us run our own show" kind of thing. These loons in Ontario aren't trying to take over Scarborough.

This Canadian thing is about "get out of " Afghanistan. The Irish rebels bombed England for the same reason.

On a side note the Fenians raided Canada a number of times from the USA between 1866 and 1871.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_raids

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

True. However, back in the 70s and 80s, there were some Irish Americans (born in the USA) in Boston who helped the IRA. It's sort of the same thing. The connection to a homeland is still there.

Good point. I never thought of that.

Anyhow I don't know why but I get the impression that these guys are the terrorist version of the Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight. I think a couple of them were already in the pokey for making a gun run to the States that the cops knew about beforehand, and the fertilizer wasn't fertilizer at all because the CSIS guys had duped them. They were being tailed for an awful long time and apparently they didn't even know it. The "funniest" thing is that they went up to the woods for their own little camp and fired some bullets at a door. I wonder if they were running across the stumps like we always seeing guys in the middle east doing when they show us a video of a training camp.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

This Canadian thing is about "get out of " Afghanistan. The Irish rebels bombed England for the same reason.

On a side note the Fenians raided Canada a number of times from the USA between 1866 and 1871.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_raids

Your foolish to think that this is just about "getting out of Afghanistan".
Canada has been a target for terrorism long before Afghanistan, we have been luck not to have been attack before.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I'm no expert on Ireland, but isn't that conflict more about Irish nationalists vs. unionists, loyal to the United Kingdom? I know there are some religious overtones as well, but I'm not sure if its really comprable to what's going on with young muslims in the west. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.

I'm not an expert on this matter, but I believe its both. Nationalists are loyal to Ireland, a catholic country and Unionists are loyal to England, a protestant country. Whether nationalists want to be part of Ireland for mostly political or mostly religious reasons, depends on the person I think.