India and Nukes

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Can you not reply to the post as a whole? The continual cutting of each individual sentence I post and replying to each as though they are separate entities is quite juvenile.

Sorry jackass, it just makes it easier to read and much easier to follow. Maybe you should invest 30 seconds in trying to figure out how quotes work. If you want, I'll send you a game tape of how they work.

As for the pipeline....

You are the one who asked this.....
"WTF??? How does this deal help the United States in any shape or fashion? The United States is no longer an export economy, its a consumer economy. WTF does America make that Indians can't get elsewhere, and cheaper? Yeah, a developing economy is going to over-pay for inferior products from America. Brilliant thinking."

Hence my explanation. The 40 billion dollar gas deal was to show how close the Iranians and Indians are and how the US hopes they can get India to use their influence with Iran. Not Pakistan.

What a joke. You think that an economic puchase makes two entities close? What an assinine stance. I guess that makes the U.S. and China bestest buddies and are aligned on everything now?

The Indians bought some natural gas. BFD. They are a customer to a nation that is selling product, nothing more. Its like you walking into a video store to stock up on game tape. You made a purchase. That doesn't mean you have any influence on that store or company or are the clerk's best buddy now. It means you bought a product that was for sale.

India has been a long time ally of the Soviets/Russians. That does not appear to be changing. George Bush could share the phone number for Vijayshanthi and Indians are not going to change their views of America over-night. One deal does not change anything. The Indians will still rely on their long history of diplomacy and support of Russia, and vice versa. The Iranians and Pakistinis will still be the primary supporters of each other because of the common belief that many of the people (including the people running the government) share. It is the religious belief structure in the area that defines the alliances, not how much natural gas one country purchases from another. Jesus, Pakistan is the only American ally in the region, and they hang by a thread only because of Musharraf and his committment to the United States. Musharraf has had four assassination attempts against him since 2003, so its pretty obvious where the people's feeling son the subject are.

As for your moral equivalence with regards to Isreal and Iran I not sure how you can say this. This is just another example of how silly you have become.

1) Israel has never said it will wipe a country off the face of the world once they get a nuclear weapon like the Iranians have

Well, if we removed nuclear weapons from countries that had meglomaniacal idiots running them the United States would fling its feces at its enemies! Or do you forget the brilliant speech by president ****-up where he divided the world with his "you're with us, or you're with the terrorists" comment?

Politicians say stupid things to appeal to their base (Bush saying that "God told him to invade Iraq" for another example). Whether you care to admit it or not, wiping Israel off the face of the map is a goal of pretty well every Islamic country.

2) Iran supports, monetarily and weapons, terrorist groups that explicitly state that their goal is to destroy Israel.

3) Since the Iranians obviously can't strike Israel or the US directly what is to stop them from handing a nuke over to a terrorist group to do the work for them?

What is to stop that from happening from any country? The fact that the country that sells/provides the nuke will be held accountable for the bomb and will re subject to reprisal. No country is going to cough up a bomb to be used indiscriminantly that could lead to the destruction of one of their own cities.

As for your historical knowledge of WWII. I suggest more than a few good books that do not have the more recent additions of "The Nuke weren't necessary /I hate America" bent in them. The Americans looked on the bombs as deliverance from 4 costly years of war!

I suggest you try and read a few more that weren't written strictly from the American perspective.

The Russians were not going to do anything until Hiroshima. August 8th Molotov called the Japanese Ambassador (Japan was still hoping even after Hiroshima to get the Soviets to negaotiate a more favourable peace deal) to inform him that on August 9th Stalin ordered the invasion East Asia and Japan. Now where the contraversy starts is that the US never really tried to find out if Hiroshima or the Soviet entry into the fight changed Japan's minds. But then no one in Japan stepped on the peddle either to speed things up. Truman was ready, and stated, to drop 2, 3 or more bombs on Japan to save American lives. August 8th the order to drop the second bomb was given. The bomb was dropped on August 9th on Nagasaki.

I provided the dates to show you that the second bomb had nothing to do with the Russians. Whether it was necessary or not...

Seems your dates support the bombing of Nagasaki as a statement to the Russians, but hey, what ever turns your neo-conservative crank.

[HOZ]

Well Lanny I have to commend you on your persistance of stupidy.

I'll start with your Pakistan is the(only) Ally in the area of the US and the US needing India to keep them in line. If Pakistan is a ally why does the US need India for?

Now for the Pakistan and Iran are close because they are Shia. Pakistan is 77% Sunni and 20% Shia. Oops. Link for details. http://www.freedomhouse.org/template...5&country=6807


Now the Iran and India are not close. Lets just ignore that 40 billion dollars IS a big deal. Especially on that is so long term and probably grow to 100 billion. We're not talking about the exchange of carrots at a market here. But lets ignore that.

From Russia with love; http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2003/12/15/51790.html
Close ties between Iran and India may guarantee stability, safety and development of the region, Iranian president Mohammad Khatami reported.

Pakistan and Iran not so Kosher
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GD22Ak02.html
The governing circles in Tehran know that their Sunni Muslim nuclear neighbor could well use its US-supplied weapons against them one day, a fear that Washington is implicitly encouraging in its bid to further contain Iran. But the Bush administration's strategy could well backfire by hastening Tehran's scramble toward a nuclear safeguard.

From Rediff: Iran, US: India's Catch 22
http://us.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/19spec3.htm
India's relations with Iran -- accused by Washington of attempting to buildnuclear weapons-- is possibly the first major hiccup in the New Delhi-Washington honeymoon.

'We are telling our Indian friends that they can't have it both ways,' a senior US administration official was quoted as saying by the International Herald Tribune. He was obviously referring to India's recent nuclear pact with the US, which would give India access to nuclear material and technology earlier prohibited under US law, and Delhi's close relationship with Tehran.

Hindu Times:US concerns not to sway India-Iran relations
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/1...1301700001.htm

Brushing off US concerns, India has asserted that it would go ahead with the landmark pipeline deal with Iran "without any compromise".
"Our friendship with Iran is civilisational, historical, deep-rooted and multi-faceted and this relationship can't be compromised for any third party concern," Minister for Petroleum and Natural Gas Mani Shankar Aiyer told HindustanTimes.com in an exclusive interview.

A speech by an Iranian in New Dehli:
http://www.mehrnews.com/en/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=89170
Today, the same close ties between the two civilizations have put both on the path of development while also being exposed to the same cultural threats.

“Throughout history, the two nations of Iran and India have enjoyed such close ties that cannot be found between two other ancient civilizations anywhere in the world.” Indeed, this statement by Jawaharlal Nehru and Shebli Na’mani is praiseworthy.

I could go on. But obviously India and Iran have close ties.


As for the US wanting closer ties with India. I still have no idea what you are getting at. So what if India has strong relations with Russia or China or whoever else? How does that mean the US and India can't have a warming of relations? I would think that the Nuclear deal was an obvious warning flare to warming relations.


And lastly. Lanny. The only way anyone can believe that the US dropped the Nagasaki bomb for the Russian is either a warped Moore-crockamentary-loving-hopeless- Anti-American. Or someone seriously unable to comprehend that there were not cell phones, landlines, fax machines or satelite communications back then. The two orders; The Russian declaration of war and the order to drop the second bomb came pretty much simultanious. The bomber was in the air long before any Russian soldiers crossed the Manchurian frontier.

The only controversy is whether the 2nd bomb was necessary or not. Should the Amercans waited? Nice to have 20-20 no pressure, sitting in front of my computer with no millions of lives at stake hindsight to make that decision.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Well Lanny I have to commend you on your persistance of stupidy.

Tell me about it. I can't believe I waste the keystrokes on someone as stupid as you (and as big a liar btw).

I'll start with your Pakistan is the(only) Ally in the area of the US and the US needing India to keep them in line. If Pakistan is a ally why does the US need India for?

Gee, I dunno dumbass, could it be because Pakistan will be an ally only as long as Musharaf is around? FOUR assassination attempts against him in the past three years. Seems like a real popular guy in his own country.

If (more like when) Musharaf gets whacked that is going to toss the country into chaos. The people in the country are Islamic and have a great hatred for the United States. No one in their right mind is going to step in and get cozy with the Americans again, no matter how much "good will" the Americans throw their way. America will be without an ally should Pakistan go with one of the Islamists that had been leading the ISI (which is the way the people are demanding). By playing the Indians against Pakistan it sends a message to the Pakistanis that they will be without the American support that has kept the Indians in check to this point. Pakistan will have much incentive to remain America's lap dog in the region so it will continue to receive the military and financial support it presently does.

Now for the Pakistan and Iran are close because they are Shia. Pakistan is 77% Sunni and 20% Shia. Oops. Link for details. http://www.freedomhouse.org/template...5&country=6807

Hmmmm, and where is Al Qaeda hiding? Pakistan. Where are the largest protests taking place in the Islamic world? Pakistan. Who has tried to kill their president FOUR times since he allowed the United States access to their country? Pakistan. I hate to break it to you, but Pakistan and Iran are two of the only countries in the world that recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, and they supported them. Ooooops!

Now the Iran and India are not close. Lets just ignore that 40 billion dollars IS a big deal. Especially on that is so long term and probably grow to 100 billion. We're not talking about the exchange of carrots at a market here. But lets ignore that.

Thank you for finally admitting the obvious. A game tape just arrive to fill you on this detail?

From Russia with love; http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2003/12/15/51790.html
Close ties between Iran and India may guarantee stability, safety and development of the region, Iranian president Mohammad Khatami reported.

Wow, no ****. Guarantee stability? Now where did I hear that before? Oh yeah, I said it earlier in this thread when pointing out the United States is more of a threat to the region than they are a benefit.

Pakistan and Iran not so Kosher... blah blah blah blah ... I could go on. But obviously India and Iran have close ties.

Yes, and I can post endless quotes from Doug Weight where he says that staying in Edmonton is his number one goal and he loves the fans and thinks the city is awesome, blah blah blah blah blah. Its called politics and saying the right things. Venezuela would say nice things about the United States if they signed a deal to supply them natural gas too. Would that mean they're bestest buddies like you suggest the Iranians and Indians are?

The only reason the two nations would have any relations what so ever is their involvement with the Soviets. They were likely brought to the table begrudgingly. Beyond that, the two nations have been enemies for hundreds of years. Or have you forgotten that little gap in ideology called religion. The Hindus and Muslims don't really like each other. Oh I know, that's all just for show. Don't let that thousand years of history get in the way. The Iranians just sold some natural gas to India, and people came out hugging and kissing, so they have GREAT relations!

Now if we can only get Venezuela to sell Pat Robertson some natural gas, oil or bananas, the world will be all sunshine and butterflies!!!

Pass the neo-con kool-aid!!!

As for the US wanting closer ties with India. I still have no idea what you are getting at. So what if India has strong relations with Russia or China or whoever else? How does that mean the US and India can't have a warming of relations? I would think that the Nuclear deal was an obvious warning flare to warming relations.

Are you really as stupid as you sound? The ONLY reason the U.S. is making friendly with India is to try and keep their ally, Pakistan, in check. Jesus, the Indians, a long time and on-going ally of the Russians, just made a gas deal with the "Axis of Evil", and America is climbing right into be with them, ****ing off their only ally in the region? Grab a freaking brain. Even for you this is an extremely obvious political move with intentions to keep Pakistan off balance.

And lastly. Lanny. The only way anyone can believe that the US dropped the Nagasaki bomb for the Russian is either a warped Moore-crockamentary-loving-hopeless- Anti-American. Or someone seriously unable to comprehend that there were not cell phones, landlines, fax machines or satelite communications back then. The two orders; The Russian declaration of war and the order to drop the second bomb came pretty much simultanious. The bomber was in the air long before any Russian soldiers crossed the Manchurian frontier.

The only controversy is whether the 2nd bomb was necessary or not. Should the Amercans waited? Nice to have 20-20 no pressure, sitting in front of my computer with no millions of lives at stake hindsight to make that decision.

Who gives a **** whether a soldier had crossed over in Manchuria? The declaration is what matters. And that declaration was not a surprise. The Americans knew this was coming and had warned the Russians numerous times to keep their noses out of the conflict. The Americans had played the Russians like a fiddle, using them to soften the Germans to the point where their invasion of Europe would be successful, and they wanted to keep the Russians out of the Pacific mix. The Russians had been talking about getting into the mix long before the declaration. They didn't just decide to jump in one day, they had this on the books for a while. The Americans were not willing to let the Russians in to make their land grab (which the Russians did anyways). This was a big signal to back the hell off.

And take you're "cellphones and satallites" crap and ram it up your ass. Information got around very well during the war. The "wireless" was slow by todays standards, but enabled communication very easily. My father was a telegrapher during the war and communications internationally took minutes. So you're idea that there had to be a Pony Express rider waiting for every communication is a joke. Christ, the Japanese sent the message of the Pearl Harbor attack and declaration of War to their ambassador the morning of the attack. The Russians amassed their troops and then notified Washington of the declaration. 24 hours later the second bomb was dropped. And to you, that's just a coincidence. Yup, obviously just had to show the Japanese some more resolve after fire bombing Tokyo into destruction and the whiping Hiroshima off the map. I mean, it was obvious to the Japanese that they were still in this game!

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Tell me about it. I can't believe I waste the keystrokes on someone as stupid as you (and as big a liar btw).



Gee, I dunno dumbass, could it be because Pakistan will be an ally only as long as Musharaf is around? FOUR assassination attempts against him in the past three years. Seems like a real popular guy in his own country.

If (more like when) Musharaf gets whacked that is going to toss the country into chaos. The people in the country are Islamic and have a great hatred for the United States. No one in their right mind is going to step in and get cozy with the Americans again, no matter how much "good will" the Americans throw their way. America will be without an ally should Pakistan go with one of the Islamists that had been leading the ISI (which is the way the people are demanding). By playing the Indians against Pakistan it sends a message to the Pakistanis that they will be without the American support that has kept the Indians in check to this point. Pakistan will have much incentive to remain America's lap dog in the region so it will continue to receive the military and financial support it presently does.



Hmmmm, and where is Al Qaeda hiding? Pakistan. Where are the largest protests taking place in the Islamic world? Pakistan. Who has tried to kill their president FOUR times since he allowed the United States access to their country? Pakistan. I hate to break it to you, but Pakistan and Iran are two of the only countries in the world that recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, and they supported them. Ooooops!



Thank you for finally admitting the obvious. A game tape just arrive to fill you on this detail?



Wow, no ****. Guarantee stability? Now where did I hear that before? Oh yeah, I said it earlier in this thread when pointing out the United States is more of a threat to the region than they are a benefit.



Yes, and I can post endless quotes from Doug Weight where he says that staying in Edmonton is his number one goal and he loves the fans and thinks the city is awesome, blah blah blah blah blah. Its called politics and saying the right things. Venezuela would say nice things about the United States if they signed a deal to supply them natural gas too. Would that mean they're bestest buddies like you suggest the Iranians and Indians are?

The only reason the two nations would have any relations what so ever is their involvement with the Soviets. They were likely brought to the table begrudgingly. Beyond that, the two nations have been enemies for hundreds of years. Or have you forgotten that little gap in ideology called religion. The Hindus and Muslims don't really like each other. Oh I know, that's all just for show. Don't let that thousand years of history get in the way. The Iranians just sold some natural gas to India, and people came out hugging and kissing, so they have GREAT relations!

Now if we can only get Venezuela to sell Pat Robertson some natural gas, oil or bananas, the world will be all sunshine and butterflies!!!

Pass the neo-con kool-aid!!!



Are you really as stupid as you sound? The ONLY reason the U.S. is making friendly with India is to try and keep their ally, Pakistan, in check. Jesus, the Indians, a long time and on-going ally of the Russians, just made a gas deal with the "Axis of Evil", and America is climbing right into be with them, ****ing off their only ally in the region? Grab a freaking brain. Even for you this is an extremely obvious political move with intentions to keep Pakistan off balance.



Who gives a **** whether a soldier had crossed over in Manchuria? The declaration is what matters. And that declaration was not a surprise. The Americans knew this was coming and had warned the Russians numerous times to keep their noses out of the conflict. The Americans had played the Russians like a fiddle, using them to soften the Germans to the point where their invasion of Europe would be successful, and they wanted to keep the Russians out of the Pacific mix. The Russians had been talking about getting into the mix long before the declaration. They didn't just decide to jump in one day, they had this on the books for a while. The Americans were not willing to let the Russians in to make their land grab (which the Russians did anyways). This was a big signal to back the hell off.

And take you're "cellphones and satallites" crap and ram it up your ass. Information got around very well during the war. The "wireless" was slow by todays standards, but enabled communication very easily. My father was a telegrapher during the war and communications internationally took minutes. So you're idea that there had to be a Pony Express rider waiting for every communication is a joke. Christ, the Japanese sent the message of the Pearl Harbor attack and declaration of War to their ambassador the morning of the attack. The Russians amassed their troops and then notified Washington of the declaration. 24 hours later the second bomb was dropped. And to you, that's just a coincidence. Yup, obviously just had to show the Japanese some more resolve after fire bombing Tokyo into destruction and the whiping Hiroshima off the map. I mean, it was obvious to the Japanese that they were still in this game!

You are truely a moonbat Lanny.

Evidence #1
Ample evidence for close relations between Iran and India and somehow you are still denying it. Close your eyes and wish it away! No ties here, move on...nope nothing. 40 billion dollar deals are nothing...move on! No Iranian president speeches...nope none! Keep moving! Nothing to see...(Lanny with fingure in ears) hmmmmmmmmmmm!

Evidence#2
India is become a huge econimic force in the world and some how you think the US and India are not closing economic and political ties because India has close ties with China and Russia. Your logic is incredible in its refusal to see the obvious.

Evidence #3
Who gives a **** whether a soldier had crossed over in Manchuria? The declaration is what matters. And that declaration was not a surprise. The Americans knew this was coming and had warned the Russians numerous times to keep their noses out of the conflict.

I highlighted the important point.
Soviet Declaration of War on Japan, 8 August 1945

Note handed to Naotake Sato, Japanese Ambassador to the USSR, by Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov in Moscow, on August 8, 1945:

After the defeat and capitulation of Hitlerite Germany, Japan remained the only great power which still stands for the continuation of the war.

The demand of the three powers ,the United States, Great Britain and China, of July 26 for the unconditional surrender of the Japanese armed forces was rejected by Japan.

Thus the proposal made by the Japanese Government to the Soviet Union for mediation in the Far East has lost all foundation.

Taking into account the refusal of Japan to capitulate, the Allies approached the Soviet Government with a proposal to join the war against Japanese aggression and thus shorten the duration of the war, reduce the number of casualties and contribute toward the most speedy restoration of peace.

True to its obligation as an Ally, the Soviet Government has accepted the proposal of the Allies, and has joined in the declaration of the Allied powers of July 26.

The Soviet Government considers that this policy is the only means able to bring peace nearer, to free the people from further sacrifice and suffering and to give the Japanese people the opportunity of avoiding the danger of destruction suffered by Germany after her refusal to accept unconditional surrender.
In view of the above, the Soviet Government declares that from tomorrow, that is from August 9, the Soviet Union will consider herself in a state of war against Japan.



Lanny to believe that the American president knew about this immediately flies against reality. Truman may have known that day but then the order for the bomb to take off (ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD) would have already left his office. The plane took off at 3 am on August 9th Lanny. Communications in those day WERE not immediate like you are trying to suppose. The time it took to load the bomb and get it prepared again makes it impossible to support your position. The order had to arrive the morning of August 8th. Unless you can find some evidence, which you can't, that the bomber was loaded and standing reading on the runway.


Please feel free to declare victory Lanny in this argument as it is pointless to continue arguing with someone that denies reality to support his position. It is quite obvious that your are quite clueless.

[White Doors]

I'm sure he'll come back and at least call you a few names.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

blah blah blah blah blah

I've tried to make it explicitly clear for you, but you too stupid to see the links. Its no use, you're just too stupid and too brainwashed to see the big picture. Believe what you want HOZ. You neo-cons are good at that. Brain-washed to believe what ever America says. I don't know why you live in Japan, afterall, America is the greatest country in the world to you and they never do anything wrong. Its really too bad you don't live here as you would have your eyes opened to the reality of the situation.

Continue to believe that India and the United States are best buddies. Heck, India and Iran are best buddies too in your little world. Man, that part of the world is actually all peaches and cream and everyone is everyone else's buddies, and not the tinderbox its building up to be. Yup, the Americans are in great shape and they are not trying to play anyone off of anyone else to keep the region destablized. You're right, you neo-cons always are.

BTW, love the spin on WWII technology. Yup, no phones, no radios, no telegraph, no ways to communicate. Yup,it took DAYS to get information around the world in 1945. DAYS!!! You neo-cons crack me up.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by White Doors

I'm sure he'll come back and at least call you a few names.

What, need another lesson in geo-politics there buddy? Run along before you get hurt.

[goaliegirl]

I dont think the good ol U S of A really cares about Iran at all they are just trying to get close enough to China one country at a time .