Iraq at civil war!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[calculoso]

MBROWN: Lanny isn't a left-wing wacko... if you'd actually consider what he has to say, you might find the debate that you're looking for. Plus, you might want to take a look at the forum guidelines (post a link to the stories, not the whole story).

Lanny: Ease up. Pointing out that you swept the floor with him isn't going to promote a calm, debating atmosphere. The debate points (and his lack of addressing them) speak for themselves.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by mbrown

There is no arguing with left wing wackos. I learned that loong ago.

Just curious, but what constitutes a left wing wacko in your eyes? Judging by this thread, anyone who disagrees with you appears to be a left wing wacko.

What does that mean for the great George W.Bush? Is he a left wing wacko as well? Yesterday he said pulling out of Iraq would be done by a future president. You claim they'll start pulling out in a couple months.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

I have been trying to talk about Iraq.

That's a bold faced lie. YOU were the one who brought Japan into the conversation (post #21). Then you suggested that democracy can be forced on Iraq (post #27). Then you decide to try and take a detour into intro sociology (post #47) to deflect the attention from you NOT answering the questions posed to you. They you tried to cloud the issue by twisting Cuba into the mix (post #48 and 49) after it was effectively used as an example by CalgaryCowboy. You have talked very little about Iraq and have spent more time trying to dodge issues that others have brought up.

You want to talk about how reputable Al Jazeera is now and how biased NA media is in comparison.

That was a direct response to you attempting to discredit a link, proving that Iraqi elections have been a sham, based on nothing but you uninformed opinion. You know nothing of Al Jazeera except what FoxNews tells you, which is nothing of value in the real world.

We will never find common ground if that is what you believe. No sense in continuing the conversation I was trying to have and the insult making that you are trying to have.

You have been further off topic than I have my friend, so don't try this dodge. You've been completely and utterly beat into submission, but just refuse to admit it. You and HOZ are the only ones on your side, and HOZ (in typical fashion) has hit and run. You're all by yourself supporting an idea that has proven to be a series of lies.

I'm sure if I kept it up we'd hear all about the evils of capitalism and globalization. The moral equivelancy of a palestinian suicide bomber and an Israeli soldier.

If you say so.

You may get an argument about corproate social responsibility, but no one with a brain in their head would make the comparison you suggest.

I have met your type before and not only is it fruitless to try and engage in an energized, thoughtful debate, it always generates into insults and I'm too busy to devote my time to that.

Yes, that is why I have been the one sticking to the topics in your posts and beating the crap out of everything you "claim" to be true. Again, you have been much more active in the insult game, so stop playing innocent.

As you were soldier.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by calculoso

MBROWN: Lanny isn't a left-wing wacko... if you'd actually consider what he has to say, you might find the debate that you're looking for. Plus, you might want to take a look at the forum guidelines (post a link to the stories, not the whole story).

Lanny: Ease up. Pointing out that you swept the floor with him isn't going to promote a calm, debating atmosphere. The debate points (and his lack of addressing them) speak for themselves.

Thanks calc, my Democrat friends think I'm a progressive Republican and my Republican friends think I'm a conservative Democrat. You just can't please everyone.

[CalgaryCowboy]

Originally Posted by mbrown

oh... An expert on Cuba now. Awesome.
'Democracy is the worst system in the world, except for everything else that's been tried.' WC

I am far from an expert on Cuba. I have Cuban friends and have worked with others. I questioned them on the situation rather than go by "official" media. They all said they left for economic reasons not political. These are regular working folks. They also said that the average Cuban does not feel oppressed rather the oppressive economic situaltion. According to them the embargo pushed them to closer ties to Communist USSR because they had no other choice. And that the aggressive stance of the US against Cuba has helped Castro justify his policies. When the average Cuban is told that the US is bent on destroying Cuba they believe it when the see the effects of the embargo every day.

BTW- The US cares very little on promoting "freedom" unless it serves thier purpose. Iraq was not about freedom. The Cuban embargo is not about freedom. Invasion of Afganastan was not about freedom. Grenada, Panama, vietnam ect. These millitary action are all about "promoting US interests abroad". Not that I think they are wrong as if we were a supper power we might do the same thing but choose to see it for what it is.

[Zarathustra]

I looked up some information about Cuba and was surprised to find that Cuba exports over 20% of total exports to Canada and imports around 6% of its goods from Canada. I never knew that Canada was a significant trading partner with the Cubans.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by CalgaryCowboy

I am far from an expert on Cuba. I have Cuban friends and have worked with others. I questioned them on the situation rather than go by "official" media. They all said they left for economic reasons not political. These are regular working folks. They also said that the average Cuban does not feel oppressed rather the oppressive economic situaltion. According to them the embargo pushed them to closer ties to Communist USSR because they had no other choice. And that the aggressive stance of the US against Cuba has helped Castro justify his policies. When the average Cuban is told that the US is bent on destroying Cuba they believe it when the see the effects of the embargo every day.

BTW- The US cares very little on promoting "freedom" unless it serves thier purpose. Iraq was not about freedom. The Cuban embargo is not about freedom. Invasion of Afganastan was not about freedom. Grenada, Panama, vietnam ect. These millitary action are all about "promoting US interests abroad". Not that I think they are wrong as if we were a supper power we might do the same thing but choose to see it for what it is.

Glad to see someone brought up these points about Cuba.

Going by memory here. When Castro was into his revolution it was followed in Canada as a war for freedom from one of the most corrupt dictators known. The USA liked Batista because he was anticommunist and he protected USA interests which were considerable. Cuba was a cesspool and Havana was the center of gambling, prostitution, etc. run by the American mafia.

Castro wasn't viewed as a Communist although he had communist followers but American policies forced him to ally with the USSR. If the Americans are so wanting to promote human rights they had the perfect opportunity when Castro first came to power. Instead they opted to back corruption and financial interests.

[HOZ]

There is a reason why so many people in America are demanding an immediate withdrawl and to let Iraq go its own way. There is a reason why some are suggesting the reinstatement of Hussein, or someone like him. With the religious fragmentation that exists in Iraq, the only thing that can hold that country together is someone who can opress the living hell out everyone and MAKE the people live together. Their culture is built on the foundation of their religion, and their religion encourages them to war against those that are different, subjegate those that are convertible, and kill the rest. Unless someone can step in and make these tribes live in peace through strong-arm tactics and fear, there will always be tribal warfare between the sects. That is their history. That is their mindset. That's what the Bush Administration doesn't understand.

How can anyone take you seriously AT ALL if you can believe this trash.

Maybe you have some game tapes on cultural knowledge and insight you can send me?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

How can anyone take you seriously AT ALL if you can believe this trash.

Maybe you have some game tapes on cultural knowledge and insight you can send me?

Believe it? Hmmmm, because its the truth?

A quick and dirty summary of politics and tribal warefare in Iraq from the mid 1500's to the dawn of present day Iraq.

http://historymedren.about.com/libra...unified+school

Here's the history of conflict post world war I.

http://historymedren.about.com/libra...bltxtiraq9.htm

And this same struggle amongst the tribes has increasingly become more complex and more dangerous with the political and theological advent of powerful Wahabis from Saudi. But hey, you obviously know better, so feel free to throw in your two cents and fill in the gaps. That is if you can get someone to dig up a game tape for you.

[mbrown]

Iraq wasn't a country until the collapse of the Caliphate and the Ottoman empire. Perhaps you are referring to tribal clans warring? Where in the world hasn't that happened would be the better question.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Iraq wasn't a country until the collapse of the Caliphate and the Ottoman empire. Perhaps you are referring to tribal clans warring? Where in the world hasn't that happened would be the better question.

What's your point? Are you trying to make one, or just tossing something out there to deflect from the fact that you don't have an argument any more?

Why is it that so many westerners refuse to think outside of their well defined and ordered box? The boundries that WE place on those people don't necessarily affect them. The sectarian divisions that exist within Islam are much more powerful than any border the British created in the region 70 years ago. These religious factions transend borders, as pointed out in several posts here. For hundreds of years these sects have warred against each other, and continue to do so today. Until these religious differences can be settled the region will continue to be unstable and extremely difficult to apply our very skewed view of their world. The geo-political constraints we believe in are not necessarily going to stop the people in these religious sects from killing each other. Until the westerners in charge can accept this, and allow the people of the region to administer themselves (you know, through a true democracy) they are setting themselves and the region up for failure (or civil war, which ever comes first).

[HOZ]

I have to say this thread has laid bare the Left-wingnuts in this forum.\

Yes, the "lets bring back the dictators" group.

The shear arrogance is sickening. "They can't handle democracy. They NEED the iron boot of a dictator on their necks to keep them in line. A dictator keeps order"

Of course everyone has hedged this in very PC talk....not Saddam, because he was baaaad, just someone "LIKE HIM"

Hey why not stop there? Lets bring back Hitler. Under his reign Germany was the pinacle of efficiency! Unemployment was unheard of, the country was rich and powerful, no secretarian violence that split the nation before his rule.

Hey why not bring back Stalin or his contempararies? Russia was a super power. law and order ruled the day. Only one other nation could project it's influence like the Russians. All feared andrespected them. Their scientists where admired around the world. Their technology was the best around.

Got to love that law and order. As long as you ignore the fact that MILLIONS...yes 10's of MILLIONS were murdered and 10's of millions of others were intimidated to make this happen.

The difference between Saddam and those two upsatdning persons is the numbers......He was great, law and order......

As long as you ignore the fact that MILLIONS...yes MILLIONS were murdered and 10's of millions of others were intimidated to make this happen.


For those of you....ehem...historians.....try looking up Brittain's history. They certainly didn't have a history of democracy either....and I'd say they were far more divided than the Iraqis are today. Invaded over and over and over again by foreign super powers, religions divisions, backwardness...the whole shabang!

UNFRIKK'N BELIEVABLE.

You people are an embarrassment to your social studies teachers. Or I at least hope you are. Didn't learn a thing.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

You people are an embarrassment to your social studies teachers. Or I at least hope you are. Didn't learn a thing.

Hmmm, and you have backed up YOUR opinion in what way? What historical evidence have you presented of ANYTHING? You haven't. Not even a game tape delivered from some mythical being back in Canada!

Since we're playing the generalizing game, you're the typical "rightwing idiot" who doesn't provide any evidence of anything. You just say "trust me, that's the way it is, God made it that way". So far you have brought nothing to this thread but the the odd hit and run post to stir things up. Zero support of your opinion in any shape or form. Just a bunch of twisting people's words so you have them saying something they didn't. Nice job!

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Definitely a culture that is prepared to embrace democracy and respect the opinions of others.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060323/...an_reaction_dc

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Hmmm, and you have backed up YOUR opinion in what way? What historical evidence have you presented of ANYTHING? You haven't. Not even a game tape delivered from some mythical being back in Canada!

Since we're playing the generalizing game, you're the typical "rightwing idiot" who doesn't provide any evidence of anything. You just say "trust me, that's the way it is, God made it that way". So far you have brought nothing to this thread but the the odd hit and run post to stir things up. Zero support of your opinion in any shape or form. Just a bunch of twisting people's words so you have them saying something they didn't. Nice job!

Lanny, I really think you should seek some help. You are making things up again and somehow I think you believe I said those things.

You are an embarrassment.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Lanny, I really think you should seek some help. You are making things up again and somehow I think you believe I said those things.

You are an embarrassment.

I guess you missed the "since we're generalizing" preamble. Reading comprehension. Look into it. I'm sure there's a game tape of it someplace.

Seems YOU are the embrassment. I have again asked you to produce SOMETHING to support your side of the argument, and you pull a FoxNews and waive your arms around trying to divert attention from the fact you have nothing. BRING SOMETHING TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEW!!! You seem to like to make people believe that YOUR OPINION is in the majority, so shouldn't you be able produce something to back up your ****?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Lanny, I really think you should seek some help. You are making things up again and somehow I think you believe I said those things.

You are an embarrassment.

Its not surprising the other right-wingers don't rush to your defense. They must cringe seeing you put your 'point of view' out there and calling it 'right-wing'. You're a disgrace to intelligent conservatives everywhere, and a discredit to their cause. Thats why they don't chime in to support you... ever.

[CalgaryCowboy]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Definitely a culture that is prepared to embrace democracy and respect the opinions of others.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060323/...an_reaction_dc

I found that very disturbing when I first heard it. This is the reason most democracies TRY to separate religion and state. However that is the law of Afganastan and we cannot impose our views on other people. Our choice is to leave if we do not agree or stay and try to make some difference in the future. The corner stone of democracy is government by the people and if this is the will of the people it is a show democray in action not a failure of it.

I want to make it clear I oppose this situation personally and think Canada should offer to take in this individual as a refugee if he wants. I respect his decision not to back down and fight for his rights and religion. Just like in our society unfair laws are only stricken down when someone stands up to them in the supreme court. Hopefully that is the case here. The fact he is getting a trial is a sign of how things have changed from when the Taliban ruled.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by HOZ

For those of you....ehem...historians.....try looking up Brittain's history. They certainly didn't have a history of democracy either....and I'd say they were far more divided than the Iraqis are today. Invaded over and over and over again by foreign super powers, religions divisions, backwardness...the whole shabang!

UNFRIKK'N BELIEVABLE.

You people are an embarrassment to your social studies teachers. Or I at least hope you are. Didn't learn a thing.

oh yeah, that's right...England was forced by an invading army to adopt democracy...

your argument is patently false.

Yes Saddam was a dictator - one that was supported by the United State government up to 1989!

who is the one that is suffering from being myoptic.

newsflash Hoz
- Iraq DID NOT HAVE WMD. Period.
- Iraq WAS NOT involved in 9/11. Period
- Saddam WAS AN ALLY of the United up until 1989.
- Osama WAS funded by the United States until the end of the Soviet invasion of Iraq.

"Left-wingnut"? Maybe - but what does that make you?

[HOZ]

oh yeah, that's right...England was forced by an invading army to adopt democracy...

your argument is patently false.

Neither were the Iraqis. They turned out on their own, under threat of death, in a greater percentage than Canadians did last election. They elected their governent which is the right of any citizen on this planet. They have held three elcection under cercumstances that no Canadian would or could dream of yet they turned out. No one forced them to do this.

Saddam Hussein was forced from his many thrones by the American-Anglo force.


Yes Saddam was a dictator - one that was supported by the United State government up to 1989!

Thank you for that history lesson. This is now 2006. What is the excuse of these countries (France, China, Germany and Russian) that cut deals with him and supported him after that?


who is the one that is suffering from being myoptic.

Certainly not me.



newsflash Hoz
Oh boy...more history

- Iraq DID NOT HAVE WMD. Period.
I guess those Kurds were killed by excess agricultural pesticide inhilation? If you mean prior to the invasion. I guess you should have spoke up because you seem to know better than these learned people. Saddam, Iraqi Generals, CIA. MI5, France, Russia, UN, Saudi Arabia secret service. Now if Saddam did know....what a dummy. He had plenty of time to come clean.


- Iraq WAS NOT involved in 9/11. Period
So what? They broke the 1991 ceasefire agreement with the UN-multi-national forces after being thrown from Kuwait. That mandate clearly called for force to have him removed. Instead countries like France, Germany, Russia and China cut deals with him while Saddam let thousands die while he built his palaces.


- Saddam WAS AN ALLY of the United up until 1989.
Manchester? Dammit won't cheer for them again!!! One thing you seem to be really missing here. Didn't your mother ever tell you that you make right a wrong?

- Osama WAS funded by the United States until the end of the Soviet invasion of Iraq.
Damn Soviets....didn't hear of that one. Do you mean Afghanistan? Yes it is well documented so thank you for the obvious. Should the USA have done nothing? Just lay down and say" Well we supported him so we can't or shouldn't do anything now" ???????????????????

"Left-wingnut"? Maybe - but what does that make you?
Someone who is estounded at how bizarre people like you have become.