Do NOT practice Christianity in China..

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

What is 100% false? I'm just quoting you directly and showing your double standard.

It's a double standard to argue someone is speculating and saying: then claim yourself that you know for certain that those people are hoping and not believing when you yourself have not been there and lived there to really know what they feel (or believe). Aren't you yourself speculating then?

Many religions will claim that faith and experience is the precursor to belief. I'm not prosetylizing to you. But your preaching of atheism is almost as bad and narrow-minded and brutish as those of religious people.

Again...go back and read other posts before babbling...YOU suggested that I am committing a double standard because I am not nor never have been religious?

...then you are speculating because you aren't religious and have never knew what faith without proof means - thusly it just means stupidity to you.

I was probably FAR more religious than most here...I have been involved with more than one religion and have seen what they do from the inside. So NOW what Lube? You seem to think you know me well when in fact you havent got a clue and further you keep reading things into my writings because I have no problem whatsoever in suggesting I am 100%...no...1000000000000% Atheist. That in itself drives all theists nuts.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Well, in some countries, an atheist might come to your door and imprison or kill you, take your children to a state farm, or send you to a gulag just for practicing religon.

I prefer the bible guy, even if I have no interest in paying attention. It's also worth mentioning that many Christians (most that I know) don't believe in trying to convert people any more.

wow...what a stretch...way to go FA...your post is so farfetched based on the discussion its hardly worth discussing. Maybe youd like to provide us all with a clue what you are talking about.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cheese

wow...what a stretch...way to go FA...your post is so farfetched based on the discussion its hardly worth discussing. Maybe youd like to provide us all with a clue what you are talking about.

You've never heard of the religous persecution that many Christians suffered in communist countries where atheism was pushed on people? I'm not going to do research for you... pick up a book!

Of course not all atheists are like that, nor are all Christians out to convert people. That was the point.

[sebbie]

i guess this fits into this thread, cnn.com has a short video report on how the russians were behind the assasination attempt on the pope. i dont know how to link the video so i guess just go check it out. i bring it up becasue communist russia and communist china are similar. take it for what you want just thought id put it out there.

[Cheese]

Recent newsclips about religion in politics...

Israelis uneasy about Hamas

Hamas is playing a political game by trying to sugarcoat a policy that calls for the destruction of Israel, said Meshulam Perlman, a flower vender in Jerusalem. The world doesn't realize this is a war between Muslims and Christians, he said.

Buckeye State elections

An election for governor that could turn on a constitutional amendment banning gay adoption is shaping up as a replay of the 2004 presidential election, when evangelical Christians drawn to the polls by a gay-marriage ban accounted for 25 percent of the Buckeye vote.

Religion and Politics unethical!

Punjab Chief Minister Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi said on Thursday that it was unethical to use religion for political gain and the plans of people working to that end would be disrupted.

Catholic Leaders Hope to Sway Immigration Debate

Despite upsetting some parishioners opposed to mixing politics and religion, Cardinal Roger M. Mahony's recent call for more tolerant and humane immigration reform is part of a larger and well-orchestrated campaign by Roman Catholic Church leaders to influence new policies now being debated by Congress.

Blair under fire....

In a television interview, he said that God and history would be his final judges on whether it was right to pursue military action against Saddam Hussein.

and finally.....
the new GTL Party has been born.

The GTL Party seeks to establish itself in every democratic county around the globe for the purpose of establishing a One World Theocratic government and the abolishment of capitalism

GTL Party - God Truth and Love Party

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

You've never heard of the religous persecution that many Christians suffered in communist countries where atheism was pushed on people? I'm not going to do research for you... pick up a book!

Of course not all atheists are like that, nor are all Christians out to convert people. That was the point.

Well Im Ukranian and have Russian decendants...so Im going to go out on a limb and assume you are going to talk about Stalin...please do...this should prove amusing.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by sebbie

i guess this fits into this thread, cnn.com has a short video report on how the russians were behind the assasination attempt on the pope. i dont know how to link the video so i guess just go check it out. i bring it up becasue communist russia and communist china are similar. take it for what you want just thought id put it out there.

please please please....I assume you are suggesting that Communism is/was Atheism? Please provide me with all of your proof!!!

[Cheese]

here Ill give you guys some ammo...thought you might like to load that pop gun...

Deaths due to Atheism

Myth:
How many people in Communist Russia and China have been killed because of atheism?

Response:
None, probably.

Atheism

Religioustolerance and Atheism

Atheism is NOT historically linked to Communism, or any other particular system of social organization. Atheists represent many shades on the political spectrum, and often disagree amongst themselves about political issues. While Communism and its leading theoreticians happened to be Atheists, social activists of other persuasions have been Atheists as well. Many of us link our Atheism -- which is, after all, based on Reason -- to socially progressive ideas including civil liberties and social equality. We "agree to disagree," hopefully in a friendly and respectful manner though, about a wide range of current issues. We work together where possible, especially on the important issue of separation of State and Church.

The Soviet Union and Stalin

Stalin certainly became an Atheist, as he fully embraced the materialist conception of history and understanding of science (Dialectical and Historical Materialism) put forward by Marx, Engels, and Lenin. Stalin was a Marxist-Leninist, and certainly one can pour through the many volumes of their works and find many writings on Religion and Atheism.
You can also examine the many works of Stalin in his 13 volumes; I would suggest his Dialectical and Historical Materialism as a good start.
Another important thing is to make clear that religion was not as oppressed in the Soviet Union as anti-Communists suggest it was. There are many books, pamphlets and writings available that were written from the late 1920s to the 1980s that illustrate this (a good one is Soviet Union: Questions and Answers, Progress Publishers, Moscow).
People could practice religion if they liked. There were Churches built in the Soviet era by the Soviet government. The difference is that Church and the state was separated.


But isn't it true that Stalin's Atheism set him free to murder hundreds of thousands, without fear of consequences, here or hereafter? This idea makes three errors: first it erroneously assumes that "mass murderer" is the natural, unchurched state of humanity. Second, it discounts the corrupting influence of Communist ideology, and, for that matter, statist and militarist power in the hands of a paranoid despot. Finally, it conveniently overlooks the mass murders committed by Christians throughout European history: Manicheans, Arians, Waldensians, Albigensians, Cathars, Witches, Beguines, Bogomils, Beghards, Lollards, Moors, Hussites, Huguenots, Protestants by Catholics, Catholics by Protestants, and, of course, Jews. One might ask, what set Christians free to murder so many?

Atheism vs Communism

In their attempt to demonize atheism, many church leaders to this day insist on equating atheism with communism. This tactic, which originated during Sen. Joseph McCarthys anti-communist hysteria, is as nonfactual today as it was then. Just because one is an atheist, it does not follow that they are communists. Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, Luther Burbank, Katherine Hepburn and countless others are known to be atheists, yet no one would call them communists.

[sebbie]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Well Im Ukranian and have Russian decendants...so Im going to go out on a limb and assume you are going to talk about Stalin...please do...this should prove amusing.

amusing? wow nice choice of words seening how your decendants killed more then half my family after the war ended. stalin or not, communism is far worse then religion. just a fun little tid bit, my uncle was put in a box with the top only having bars so the sunlight could burn him during the day and the mosquitos drive him mad at night and a shoe for a pillow because he ****ed of some army officials during his madatory milatary service. i can understand your distaste for religion, but your are coming of as defending commusim, if im wrong i apologise inadvance.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cheese

here Ill give you guys some ammo...thought you might like to load that pop gun...

Deaths due to Atheism

Myth:
How many people in Communist Russia and China have been killed because of atheism?

Response:
None, probably.

That man is about as valid as anyone with a blog. He presents no counter points, and only uses sources that agree with his opinion.

I also see no mention of Albania or North Korea.

He also goes on to say, "sure atheists killed Christians, but it wasn't just because they were Christian. There were other reasons for killing them...." (paraphrasing).

[sebbie]

Originally Posted by Cheese

here Ill give you guys some ammo...thought you might like to load that pop gun...

Deaths due to Atheism

Myth:
How many people in Communist Russia and China have been killed because of atheism?

Response:
None, probably.

Atheism

Religioustolerance and Atheism

i guess your right atheist communist did not kill christians because they were christians, but i guess they killed them because, and i qoute your article " communist typically regarded religious organizations as hinderance to the creation of a workers paradise". so whats your poibnt? they killed and took away peoples rights, they didnt do it in the name of god but in the name of ? again i can accept that you dont like religion but dont argue that comunism is "ok", and that its there right to control peoples beliefs. im not sure if we are arguing the same thing anymore.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by sebbie

amusing? wow nice choice of words seening how your decendants killed more then half my family after the war ended. stalin or not, communism is far worse then religion. just a fun little tid bit, my uncle was put in a box with the top only having bars so the sunlight could burn him during the day and the mosquitos drive him mad at night and a shoe for a pillow because he ****ed of some army officials during his madatory milatary service. i can understand your distaste for religion, but your are coming of as defending commusim, if im wrong i apologise inadvance.

you obviously do NOT read. Your remarks are as distasteful to me as those things that happened to your relatives. Dont preach to me about your families persecution when over 12 million Ukranians were systematically murdered by the Soviets....many of them my descendants.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by sebbie

i guess your right atheist communist did not kill christians because they were christians, but i guess they killed them because, and i qoute your article " communist typically regarded religious organizations as hinderance to the creation of a workers paradise". so whats your poibnt? they killed and took away peoples rights, they didnt do it in the name of god but in the name of ? again i can accept that you dont like religion but dont argue that comunism is "ok", and that its there right to control peoples beliefs. im not sure if we are arguing the same thing anymore.

Are you daft? or simply in Grade 3? Please ask your father to read my posts and tell me where Ive suggested that Communism is good.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

That man is about as valid as anyone with a blog. He presents no counter points, and only uses sources that agree with his opinion.

I also see no mention of Albania or North Korea.

He also goes on to say, "sure atheists killed Christians, but it wasn't just because they were Christian. There were other reasons for killing them...." (paraphrasing).

I picked the obvious choice....LOL....obviously you cant provide anything beyond than man is not valid. Nice shot.

[sebbie]

Originally Posted by Cheese

you obviously do NOT read. Your remarks are as distasteful to me as those things that happened to your relatives. Dont preach to me about your families persecution when over 12 million Ukranians were systematically murdered by the Soviets....many of them my descendants.

well when you are arguing about communist opression maybe dont use words like "amusing". but i apolgise none the less. trickly little thing this internet thing. but what i was getting from your posts was that communism is ok. so i guess i really missed the meat of your point.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by sebbie

well when you are arguing about communist opression maybe dont use words like "amusing". but i apolgise none the less. trickly little thing this internet thing. but what i was getting from your posts was that communism is ok. so i guess i really missed the meat of your point.

Im NOT arguing against anything but religion and its involvement in Politics...and my own personal train...religion in schools and taught to children. When I suggest I am an Atheist I am likened to Communists, which makes me laugh. Read the links I provided...all of them.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I picked the obvious choice....LOL....obviously you cant provide anything beyond than man is not valid. Nice shot.

Ever hear of this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enver_Hoxha

Obviously neither you, nor the man who wrote out his opinion on "About.com" has heard of him.

Probably the best example of an atheist government persecuting religon.

Communism and atheism may not have been intrinsically linked, but religon often interfered with ability for communist leaders to develop the cults of personalities that were required to seduce the people. Therefore religon was often suppressed and atheism was pushed, even when the leaders themselves still worshipped.

[sebbie]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Are you daft? or simply in Grade 3? Please ask your father to read my posts and tell me where Ive suggested that Communism is good.

ok im not to proud to admit i may have reached abit and misunderstood what you were trying to say. but its nice that you call me names and talk down to me. heres a news flash for you, you are the most religious person on this forum. your religion is science and you push it on people more then the church pushes its ideas. dont believe me? a few months ago you said, paraphrasing "im happy when ever i convert a christain to atheism". not only that you belittle peoples beliefs by saying things like "believe in the speghetti monster" if you want. you are the definition of a radical atheist.

anyways you said that china has the right to control religion in an earlier post. i dont know how i may have misinterperted that as a pro communist view.i guess communism is bad except when it holds down what you dont believe in?

[sebbie]

damn sorry one post behind you, igore the last one cheese, you explained your view in the post above

edit: i also agree with religion not having any part of politics. but politics should not have anything to do with religion, and china is definately not following that idea.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Im NOT arguing against anything but religion and its involvement in Politics...and my own personal train...religion in schools and taught to children. When I suggest I am an Atheist I am likened to Communists, which makes me laugh. Read the links I provided...all of them.

I'm not likening you to a communist. My point is simply that you cannot lump Christians together based on the actions of a few, just like I can't lump all atheists together based on the actions of a few. I was trying to show you why it is unfair for you to bash all religon and practitioners of religon by using the example of atheists behaving badly. That is all. Heck, I am not even a religous person.

Both sides are guilty of intolerance at certain points in history.