September 11th Thread

[longsuffering]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Sep 12 2004, 04:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Sep 12 2004, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

This is outrageous even for you Cowperson. How can you make this kind of sweeping generalization?

My experience is that the average Muslim respects our culture.

I base that on my experience working in Muslim countries - Kyrgryzstan, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan & Yemen since 1996, so I'm guessing I'm a bit more qualifed than you to have an opinion.

Terrorists no more represent the feelings of the average Muslim than you represent the views of the average CalPucker.

Since when is a posed question a sweeping generalization?

Longsuffering..the king of extrapolation. [/b][/quote]
Read Cow's follow up post and tell me how I 'extrapolated' the wrong meaning.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by longsuffering@Sep 12 2004, 04:56 PM

Read Cow's follow up post and tell me how I 'extrapolated' the wrong meaning.

He has his doubts...he's asking someone to back up their comment....which you could've done, instead you chose to hammer him for making a sweeping generalization that he did not make.

Kind of like when you called me a racist...remember that....when what I said had zero to do with race?

Forgive me if I don't trust your interpretation skills based on my past experience with you here.

[transplant99]

I think what is frustrating to some people is that there so many other innocents who have died, be it in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, Sudan, etc., who are not remembered at all.

I have a gut feeling that those people are remembered by the people in the area of the world that this happened, much like Americans remembering an event in this part of the world....and if they dont then those are a bunch of truly non-feeling folks. Not unlike some in this very thread.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by longsuffering+Sep 12 2004, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (longsuffering @ Sep 12 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Sep 12 2004, 02:27 PM

By the way, how much do you think the average Muslim "respects" your culture?

Cowperson

This is outrageous even for you Cowperson. How can you make this kind of sweeping generalization?

My experience is that the average Muslim respects our culture.

I base that on my experience working in Muslim countries - Kyrgryzstan, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan & Yemen since 1996, so I'm guessing I'm a bit more qualifed than you to have an opinion.

Terrorists no more represent the feelings of the average Muslim than you represent the views of the average CalPucker. [/b][/quote]
If you'd bothered to read my post, I took out the "terrorism" element and asked a reasoned question.

I've said in numerous threads before that the common Arab man probably has the same concerns as the common man in Des Moines of family, house, security.

Nevertheless, my questions regarding "culture" and "respect" in my last post stand.

Maybe you should address them instead of flailing your arms in outrage over a point that doesn't exist.

Cowperson

[longsuffering]

Maybe you should read my post. Besides "flailing my arms", I wrote:

My experience is that the average Muslim respects our culture.

I base that on my experience working in Muslim countries - Kyrgryzstan, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan & Yemen since 1996, so I'm guessing I'm a bit more qualifed than you to have an opinion.


I think I addressed your original question.

What first hand experience can you draw upon - not armchair analysis - to support your suggestion?

Edited for repetition.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Sep 12 2004, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Sep 12 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

How do Muslims respect my culture? I don't know. I've only interacted with a few of them, and to be honest I've never had a problem with them. The whole prayer thing creeps me out, but it creeps me out when Christians openly pray as well. I've never been told by a Muslim that I could not do anything when I was around them. I've never been told that this or that was wrong. I can't say the same about Christians though, but I've had a greater exposure to them than I have Muslims. There are wackos on both sides of the fence and I guess I've dealt with more Christians than I have Muslims so it only makes sense that I should run into a wacko Christian quicker than I should run into a wacko Muslim. The same goes for Jews, Buddists, Hindus, etc. I don't know why a cultural custom must be a divider for so many people. It just doesn't make sense.

Gee Cow, the guy was a fireman and was called to respond to the WTC after the attack. What's he supposed to do? Politely decline and say I told you so, or do what he was trained to do and attempt to help those that were hurt in the attack? I have no idea what you are trying to get at, but it makes little sense.

Ah, I skimmed your post and link and didn't get that. Sorry.

I guess the bottom line is that I respect their customs and they respect mine.

They respect your culture? In general, taking the wacko element out? Can you really say that?

I'm not talking about Muslims living in Canada and America. I'm talking about the average Joe on an average Syrian, Saudi, Iranian, Afghani, Pakistani street.

I don't get the sense they respect your culture, a culture that allows religions of all faiths to be practiced openly, a culture that ostensibly doesn't care what a Jew might be doing any day of the week and a culture that doesn't paint unveiled woman as "whores" and chattel.

I don't think those points cover the wacko element. Those are common man points.

And, come to think of it, why would you respect such a culture? What has the Muslim culture of Arabia in the last 25 years done to earn your respect?

Just asking.

Cowperson [/b][/quote]
Personally I have not been to the Middle East, so I can't comment on what people in the Middle East do in regards to our culture. One thing is for certain, I will not believe any of propaganda spewed by the US government in trying to get us to swallow about Arabs being animals. They have a different belief structure and from what I have learned about reading about it, and interacting with those Muslims that come to our countries, I have no reason to swallow the obvious lies being spread in the mass media. It kills me how you can watch a show on the Travel Channel about the great culture and see how peaceful and accomodating the people are, but switch over to CNN and you can see how they all have horns and pitch forks. It doesn't make sense. Their religion teaches them tolerance, and the m ajority of the people in that reigion practice it. They believe that their religion is superior to that of all others, but what religion does not preach that? Again, it's probably just there sheer numbers of Christians that I have had to deal with, but generally speaking, Christians are bigger arseholes than the Muslims I have met.

How many Muslims have you had to deal with that allows you to make them all out to be the enemies they are made out to be? Have you been to the Middle East, and if so, anywhere else other than Israel? What has caused you to have such a narrow view on these people?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 12 2004, 05:15 PM
One thing is for certain, I will not believe any of propaganda spewed by the US government in trying to get us to swallow about Arabs being animals.

You continue to lie and or make a fool out of yourself at nearly every turn. Please, enlighten me, exactly what propoganda has the US government been spewing in an effort to make us believe that Arabs (you realize that all arabs are not Muslims and all Muslims are not arabs I would hope) are animals?

Get back to me when you can point to a specific piece of US Gov't propoganda that goes to the aim you mentioned.

I'll check back in 9 months and there still won't be a meaninful reply to this request becuase you are not capable of the impossible.

Unbelievable.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Sep 12 2004, 05:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Sep 12 2004, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Gee Cow, the guy was a fireman and was called to respond to the WTC after the attack. What's he supposed to do? Politely decline and say I told you so, or do what he was trained to do and attempt to help those that were hurt in the attack? I have no idea what you are trying to get at, but it makes little sense.

Ah, I skimmed your post and link and didn't get that. Sorry.

I guess the bottom line is that I respect their customs and they respect mine.

They respect your culture? In general, taking the wacko element out? Can you really say that?

I'm not talking about Muslims living in Canada and America. I'm talking about the average Joe on an average Syrian, Saudi, Iranian, Afghani, Pakistani street.

I don't get the sense they respect your culture, a culture that allows religions of all faiths to be practiced openly, a culture that ostensibly doesn't care what a Jew might be doing any day of the week and a culture that doesn't paint unveiled woman as "whores" and chattel.

I don't think those points cover the wacko element. Those are common man points.

And, come to think of it, why would you respect such a culture? What has the Muslim culture of Arabia in the last 25 years done to earn your respect?

Just asking.

Cowperson

Personally I have not been to the Middle East, so I can't comment on what people in the Middle East do in regards to our culture. One thing is for certain, I will not believe any of propaganda spewed by the US government in trying to get us to swallow about Arabs being animals. They have a different belief structure and from what I have learned about reading about it, and interacting with those Muslims that come to our countries, I have no reason to swallow the obvious lies being spread in the mass media. It kills me how you can watch a show on the Travel Channel about the great culture and see how peaceful and accomodating the people are, but switch over to CNN and you can see how they all have horns and pitch forks. It doesn't make sense. Their religion teaches them tolerance, and the m ajority of the people in that reigion practice it. They believe that their religion is superior to that of all others, but what religion does not preach that? Again, it's probably just there sheer numbers of Christians that I have had to deal with, but generally speaking, Christians are bigger arseholes than the Muslims I have met.

How many Muslims have you had to deal with that allows you to make them all out to be the enemies they are made out to be? Have you been to the Middle East, and if so, anywhere else other than Israel? What has caused you to have such a narrow view on these people? [/b][/quote]
Who says I made them out to be enemies? Looking for an escape hatch?

I asked you a simple question. What makes you think Arab Muslims respect our culture?

As to myself, I've said in numerous threads in the past the common man in Arabia probably has the same concerns as the common man in Des Moines, that being family, home and security. They're no different than anyone else in that regard.

I've pointed out before that a poll in Saudi Arabia found the majority admired Osama Bin Laden but only eight per cent would want him running the country. The results were roughly similar for Mucky al-Sadr in Iraq in a similar poll.

I also noted the religious wackos in Iran had to impose sanctions on liberal candidates to retain their hold on the country. Again, the common man leaning towards greater freedoms and democracy, although stifled in that instance.

By and large, they seem pragmatic perhaps as well.

But what has the Muslim culture done in the last 25 years to earn your respect as a culture? And what do you respect about a culture that institutionalizes racism, that practices religious intolerance and by and large appears to have a public policy - not a religious policy - of treating women as chattel?

It kills me how you can watch a show on the Travel Channel about the great culture and see how peaceful and accomodating the people are, but switch over to CNN and you can see how they all have horns and pitch forks. It doesn't make sense.

Maybe you should compare the "fairness" of CNN and The Travel Channel to the message delivered to Arab Muslims via Al-Jazeera and other media outlets.

You better give that point up before you get creamed.

I base that on my experience working in Muslim countries - Kyrgryzstan, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan & Yemen since 1996, so I'm guessing I'm a bit more qualifed than you to have an opinion.

It's fortunate then that you've come along to help us armchair quarterbacks out.

So enlighten us, what has the Arab Muslim culture done in the last 25 years to earn our respect? What did you notice?

And what is it that you respect about a culture with institutionalized racism, religious intolerance and which treats women broadly as chattel?

Or did I get that wrong because I haven't been there?

Cowperson

[dangler22]

"And what is it that you respect about a culture with institutionalized racism, religious intolerance and which treats women broadly as chattel?"

North American Culture does a pretty good job themselves on all the points listed above. What have we done to earn respect from the Muslim culture praytell?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by dangler22@Sep 12 2004, 05:58 PM
"And what is it that you respect about a culture with institutionalized racism, religious intolerance and which treats women broadly as chattel?"

North American Culture does a pretty good job themselves on all the points listed above. What have we done to earn respect from the Muslim culture praytell?

Interesting

First and foremost you are unlikely to see a theocratic government in the Western Hemisphere.

We went through the process of removing institutional racism.

We went throught the process of removing institutional sexism

Its not a matter of gaining respect from the Muslims any longer, A lot of Muslim leaders have declared America and the West as enemies because in part because of foreign policy mandates. But in a larger part, because of an institutional fear on the part of some Muslim leaders that people if not educated in the evils of western society will not fall into line quite so easily.

Why are these terrorist leaders content not to help thier fellow muslims, not to set up a literacy program in Palestine, not to use Osama Bin Ladin's millions to feed the poor unwashed masses? Why dosen't Arafat use some of his millions to build better housing and sewage. Because its easy to make people angry and resentful if you make them suffer. Its easy to make an ignorant person into a living bomb if your better educated then the average Joe.

Yes America has made some blunders in the middle east, but that was just a catalyst based around poor leadership that now has no way to get themselves out of the fact that they have been moving backwards instead of forewards.

[dangler22]

I just feel that our way is not perfect and if you ask me we are still in a process of eliminating institutional racism and sexism and will be for a while.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by dangler22@Sep 12 2004, 06:22 PM
I just feel that our way is not perfect and if you ask me we are still in a process of eliminating institutional racism and sexism and will be for a while.

Your right nobodies system is right.

However you have to ask yourself who's worked towards and continues to work towards the removal of institutionalized rasicm and sexism. And how refuses to do that because it will completely erode thier power base.

Its a shame because the more radical Muslim governments have actually warped the very religion that they held so dear because originally the Muslims recoginized issues like Woman's sufferage and racism issues hundreds of years before the Christians did.

[peter12]

Its a shame because the more radical Muslim governments have actually warped the very religion that they held so dear because originally the Muslims recoginized issues like Woman's sufferage and racism issues hundreds of years before the Christians did.

Exactly how I feel. If you go back to the time of the Crusades the roles were switched.

The Western Christian world was stuck in the Dark Ages while the Muslims were quite a bit more advanced culture-wise as well as idealology.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by peter12@Sep 12 2004, 06:45 PM
Its a shame because the more radical Muslim governments have actually warped the very religion that they held so dear because originally the Muslims recoginized issues like Woman's sufferage and racism issues hundreds of years before the Christians did.

Exactly how I feel. If you go back to the time of the Crusades the roles were switched.

The Western Christian world was stuck in the Dark Ages while the Muslims were quite a bit more advanced culture-wise as well as idealology.

I would agree with that Peter12 but, as CaptainCrunch observed, those trend lines have reversed in a very bold way, particularly in the last 40 years.

Nobody would disagree that racism exists in North America, that woman still can bump their heads on a glass ceiling to some extent, that Jerry Falwell and his ilk are still lurking in the weeds.

In terms of degrees though, my question still stands: "Why should I, as a common Western man, be offering respect to broadly interpreted Muslim culture that appears to be stuck in many ways in a time warp."

There's a big panic in Ontario right now because the government there is considering allowing Sharia Law to be used as a mechanism for settling disputes among Muslim Canadians. Muslim women want no part of it. Small wonder.

We should also note that some Arab media have been emboldened lately to ask the obvious question of whether or not Muslims are the architects of their own problems instead of the victims they like to believe they are.

Through time, with the stirring of the pot that's going on "over there," I would expect that chorus to grow louder.

There's some healthy introspection going on.

And, again, given the philosophical differences on some key points outlined above, culturally ingrained, why would we expect that Muslims broadly respect Western culture?

Its a utopian vision.

One of my clients has a wife who is a rather beautiful blonde, buxom babe but largely confined to her company living area in Qatar. She's certainly not driving around alone with her midrif showing and hair blowing in the wind. For her own safety.

Cowperson

[Table 5]

after reading this thread, Im feeling pretty embarrassed to call some of you my fellow Canadians. There is a time for politicizing, and there is a time to cease the finger pointing. Have some fricking respect.

Come down to the Ground Zero sight and tell me you it won't affect you inside.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Sep 12 2004, 05:19 PM

You continue to lie and or make a fool out of yourself at nearly every turn. Please, enlighten me, exactly what propoganda has the US government been spewing in an effort to make us believe that Arabs (you realize that all arabs are not Muslims and all Muslims are not arabs I would hope) are animals?

Get back to me when you can point to a specific piece of US Gov't propoganda that goes to the aim you mentioned.

I'll check back in 9 months and there still won't be a meaninful reply to this request becuase you are not capable of the impossible.

Unbelievable.

The characterization of Arabs as animals is maybe a bit strong, but the propoaganda machine is indeed in over drive.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/730142/posts

http://www.pintak.com/Islam%20Syllabus.htm

http://www.doughertyland.com/archives/000248.html

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...War_propaganda

http://www.fathom.com/course/21701771/session4.html

http://www.ing.org/activists/subpage...m=15&pagenum=2

http://www.adc.org/hatecrimes/media.htm

http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/sfischo/Arabs.html

http://www.mideastjournal.com/arabsimage.html

http://www.mideastjournal.com/sindionhollywood.html

http://www.hanania.com/holly.htm

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/ne...ticleID=101402

And here's a young Arabs view as found in his BLOG.

http://www.humanbeams.com/bsn/bsn304...nd-media.shtml


I hope that is enough Dis. It was only a 30 second search.

As for being a fool and lying, well you're only being a fool and lying to youself if you think for a moment that the givernment is telling you the truth about what has been going on. As scandles like Abu Ghahib and the whole Halliburton issue tell you, things are not always as rosy as the dopes in office like to try and make you believe. But then again, that's just another one of my many lies, unlike the Bush administration. BTW Dis, which story are you using THIS week for the authorization to invade Iraq?

EDIT: Offensive link removed.

[RougeUnderoos]

Edit to remove bad stuff.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Sep 12 2004, 07:33 PM
You just might want to remove those links to mideastjournal. The "griponmedia" link is a racist diatribe and contains the following sentence:

"Redstone, who actually owns 76 per cent of the shares of Viacom, has offered Beavis and Butthead as teen role models and currently is the largest single purveyor of race-mixing propaganda to White teenagers and sub-teens in America and in Europe"

Not exactly furthering your cause.

A lot of those links don't further his cause:

Love this reasoning:

The U.S. State Department has begun publishing a new magazine, underwhelmingly entitled Hi, and is hawking it to young Arabs in more than a dozen countries (via The Washington Post). On the outset this might look like a good idea, since its goal is to point out the "positive" values that America represents - which, judging by the cover are apparently fashion and music, not exactly the greatest endorsement, but whatever works.

I, on the other hand, am convinced that most Arabs are not stupid. I think they'll clearly see this as propaganda, albeit on the surface a rather harmless type of propaganda. I'm concerned, however, that young Arabs will react against.

That's Lanny's definition of government anti-Muslim propoganda?

I think Dis was looking for credible evidence of USA government anti-Muslim documents.

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

There's an old cold war saying, What is one mans propaganda is another man's truth, or soemthing to effect. What makes us right and the other guys wrong? Because we were raised to believe we were right and no one would lie to us? Its all a matter of perspective and which side of the fence you're on. I'm trying to see things from their side of the fence, that's all. Unfortunately I dn't speak Arabic so can't post anything from their news bureaus that would outline the views there. I do notice that as soon as we hear something we don't like we immediately classify it as racist and garabage. Do you ever stop to wonder why? Do you ever consider we are conditioned to respond a given way?

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 12 2004, 08:18 PM
There's an old cold war saying, What is one mans propaganda is another man's truth, or soemthing to effect. What makes us right and the other guys wrong? Because we were raised to believe we were right and no one would lie to us? Its all a matter of perspective and which side of the fence you're on. I'm trying to see things from their side of the fence, that's all. Unfortunately I dn't speak Arabic so can't post anything from their news bureaus that would outline the views there. I do notice that as soon as we hear something we don't like we immediately classify it as racist and garabage. Do you ever stop to wonder why? Do you ever consider we are conditioned to respond a given way?

A guy who would put up the links you just did shouldn't be talking to others about being gullible to one line of thinking.

And again, I would ask you, as a free-thinking man of some intelligence, what is to respect about a culture that institutionalizes racism and institutionalizes the reduction of women's rights.

Seriously, I'm sitting here looking out the window, watching a beauty of a big rain storm coming off the Rockies directly at me, scratching my head as to why I should be giving the broad, Arab Muslim culture much respect. What has that culture done lately that would cause me to offer it?

And I'm wondering, given the differences cited above, why anyone would think there is respect there for what we reperesent on our side of the pond.

After 9/11, there was the wingnut faction that wanted to export every Muslim in America but more obvious was the deliberate attempt to differentiate between the common Muslim in America versus the radical faction that had carried out the attacks.

Would that level of magnanimous understanding have existed in Muslim Arabia if the situation had been reversed?

You're the guy always saying we need to ask some questions Lanny. Why aren't you asking questions of Muslims?

Cowperson