The Flames' handling/plan for Zayne Parekh..

[Jay Random]

Asked:

Originally Posted by Bonded

I think the biggest risk is more injuries. I’m not sure if it’s his play style or foot speed but he still seems like he needs to learn how to take a hit

Answered:

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I think it's less about size and just that his decision making and reflexes are still tuned to the speed and aggression of the junior level. Being a second or half a second off can mean the difference between making a bad play, getting pinned in your zone, and worst of all. getting pummeled/injured. These aren't "mistakes".

Every prospect has to adjust to the speed of the NHL by making quicker decisions, and that means learning both in practice and in games until the decisions become intuitive. It's when Parekh hesitates that the freight train catches him on the tracks.

Seems to me the coaches need him to work his bag off in practice with the specific goal of eliminating that moment of hesitation, and meanwhile, give him sheltered minutes on the third pairing and PP.

He'll be fine, I'm sure.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ok but what are the examples of this?
Sam.
Who else?

I think this is a lot of conjecture without a lot of basis.

Where is the pattern of poor development by the Flames. Specifics please.

Parekh and Bennett equal 50% of the Flames top 10 picks in the cap era.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Parekh and Bennett equal 50% of the Flames top 10 picks in the cap era.

Ok.
And they haven't screwed Parekh up yet have they?

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Asked:



Answered:



Every prospect has to adjust to the speed of the NHL by making quicker decisions, and that means learning both in practice and in games until the decisions become intuitive. It's when Parekh hesitates that the freight train catches him on the tracks.

Seems to me the coaches need him to work his bag off in practice with the specific goal of eliminating that moment of hesitation, and meanwhile, give him sheltered minutes on the third pairing and PP.

He'll be fine, I'm sure.

I suspect you're right. I also wonder if continuing to watch games from the pressbox now and then will help with the process of seeing the game at the NHL level. If Parekh doesn't look NHL-ready, I don't think it would be the worst thing to platoon him with Brz for now, with the intent to trade one of Weegar or Whitecloud either at the trade deadline or at the draft and play both Parekh and Brz full time next season.

[Samonadreau]

His handling will be AHL conditioning stint. then finish off rhe season with the big club. probably back to the A full time next season.

[indes]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ok but what are the examples of this?
Sam.
Who else?

I think this is a lot of conjecture without a lot of basis.

Where is the pattern of poor development by the Flames. Specifics please.

Juuso Valimaki for one. Split between the AHL/NHL then asked to go to Liiga then comes back gets some NHL time then the next year is back in the AHL.

Oliver Kylington bounces between the AHL/NHL for 2 years after putting up 8pts in 33 (+3) games with 12:30min/g icetime as a 21 years old.

Rory Kerins puts up 4 points in 5 NHL games after some good AHL years. Gets 2 games this year.

Connor Zary sees his icetime drop from 16:04/gm to 14:24/gm after a 0.5ppg season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Parekh and Bennett equal 50% of the Flames top 10 picks in the cap era.

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ok.
And they haven't screwed Parekh up yet have they?

By this math, they've succeeded in 50% of their top 10s being stars/elite (Monahan and Tkachuk), failed one in Bennett (though the fact he immediately succeeded in Fla says they didn't ruin him as claimed about, say Baertschi) and one is unknown.

Compare to any random team.

Say, Carolina: 6 top 10s. Skinner was close to elite, so is Svechnikov; Lindholm/Hanifin are NHlers but nothing to write home about. Haydn Fleury busted.

Detroit: 7 top 10s. Rasmussen/Zadina/Edvinsson are NHLers, but thats about all you can say. Seider/Raymond are star quality. The otehr two are not judgeable yet.

LA: 5 top tens, one of whom is elite, one is a good NHLer (who became so on another team, like Bennett), two are disappointing and one is a bust.

I don't think Calgary has any big differences in how many picks develop "properly".

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Good grief. Barn Burner and Kent Wilson.
That’s a bad Christmas fruitcake covered in crap gravy 3 weeks later.

[EDMONTONisNG]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Baertschi is a funny thing - some people will point at the Hartley altercation where Baertschi ended up crying as the 'this is why he didn't work out'. While I believe it was obviously wrong of Hartley to have had that strong of a reaction to Sven, the reaction came for a reason, right? I mean, Hartley wasn't going off on everyone like that. In fact, one of the big issues with Hartley was that he preferred the youth and got along better with young players. It was always the vets that he would have issues with.


I remember when Sven played on the Flames, I started noticing how damn lazy he was. He just glided everywhere. If I was at the game, I could count how many strides he would take on some shifts on one hand. That was Baertschi.


Sure, his concussion probably made him avoid contact, hence his terrible efforts on puck battles. That at least has some underlying explanation... but the lack of actual strides out there? Baertschi to me was sticking out like a sore thumb compared to the 'hard working' Flames - everyone skated and competed hard, except for Baertschi.


I also think part of the issue when it came to Baertschi was Feaster - he forced Baertschi on the roster. I had my suspicions by this point. The instant that Burke fired Feaster, he demoted Baertschi, and that's when the famous Burke speech came about from. He was bang on. That's what I was seeing - Baertshi worked hard in the offensive zone only, and even then not always.


Then there was also that sense of entitlement. Sven spoke about it when he went to Vancouver - how they would call someone else up 'as if to throw it in his face'. Vancouver didn't change anything.


So morale of the story - Sven was lazy and would never have worked out especially considering he had a sense of entitlement, Hartley was an ass that treated people poorly, Feaster wanted his 'young superstar' in the NHL to appease his own vanity, and Burke should have given that feedback to Baertschi in private.


When it comes to Bennett, the issue was that he simply wasn't given enough rope. This is the message from Conroy himself, and he basically stated that not every prospect is the same, and that it can't always be fair. Sometimes a prospect just needs more rope than a different prospect, and that Bennett should have had that here. I think Conroy was right, as Bennett got that rope right away in Florida, and never looked back. He was also looking like he was turning around under Darryl Sutter here, but that's a small sample size.


Neither of these cases have anything to do with Parekh. Conroy was here for both Baertschi and for Bennett. I am sure he has his own thoughts on how to bring up prospects the right way. Parekh doesn't strike me as lazy, and I do believe that if he does falter, that Conroy will make sure that he gets enough rope until it is absolutely obvious that he isn't an NHL'er. Until then, I wouldn't worry about past prospects not making it - not every prospect makes it, and there are many things that can stunt development. Other than the injury, I thought Parekh was progressing nicely, including defensively. Offence wasn't quite there, but like I said in my previous post, the entire team was playing lousy offensively at the time.


I am not really worried about Parekh still, other than him not having that awareness as guys target him. That's my one and only worry about him. I think he will end up as an offensive dynamo, and that his defence will be fine too - I doubt he will end up like "BouchDumb" up north, and I would be very surprised if he busts. Too much IQ in the kid, and too much maturity. Exactly how good he will be is the million dollar question, but I think he was developing fine in the NHL up until his injury.

Sven was lazy AF. Zayne is not.

I think Zayne will have better offensive numbers than Bouchard but will just slightly be better defensively. It's fine hes not a defensive shutdown guy. He's not meant to be. Similar to BouchDumb, I think Zayne takes a big step in his D+3 year and puts up 50-60 points next year.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

His handling will be AHL conditioning stint. then finish off rhe season with the big club. probably back to the A full time next season.

Agreed, they are only allowed 1 conditioning stint I believe

My guess he is in and out of the lineup with the Flames for the remainder of the year

Next year to start the season in AHL

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by indes

Juuso Valimaki for one. Split between the AHL/NHL then asked to go to Liiga then comes back gets some NHL time then the next year is back in the AHL.

Oliver Kylington bounces between the AHL/NHL for 2 years after putting up 8pts in 33 (+3) games with 12:30min/g icetime as a 21 years old.

Rory Kerins puts up 4 points in 5 NHL games after some good AHL years. Gets 2 games this year.

Connor Zary sees his icetime drop from 16:04/gm to 14:24/gm after a 0.5ppg season.

Those are weak examples.
- Valimaki's career was de-railed by a serious knee injury that altered his mobility. He had ample opportunity to re-establish a career in Arizona, and after a single good season, is a fringe NHLer at best.
- Oliver Kylington was developed by the team into a good dman, though with some flaws. Lots of other factors on this one in terms of why he's now out of the NHL
- Rory Kerins may simply not play at the NHL required pace
- Connor Zary remains a WIP. To early to tell. Injuries a factor here as well.

None of these are compelling examples of the Flames screwing up development. I'm looking for other examples where a player has flourished once away from the Flames. I don't see those.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

None of these are compelling examples of the Flames screwing up development. I'm looking for other examples where a player has flourished once away from the Flames. I don't see those.

Well, y'see, of course players don't flourish once away from the Flames, because the Flames ruined them! Whereas every player drafted by every other NHL team succeeds beautifully and achieves his full potential.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ok.
And they haven't screwed Parekh up yet have they?

No they haven’t and I didn’t say they did. This thread was created and it was a discussion on barnburner today so some folks are starting to get concerned.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

No they haven’t and I didn’t say they did. This thread was created and it was a discussion on barnburner today so some folks are starting to get concerned.

OK I didn't really understand your post I guess.
But neither here or there. I think the concern is premature. But I was reacting more to this notion that there is a pattern of bad development with the Flames (Flames' fans are worked up because we've seen this movie before), where i don't see that.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

OK I didn't really understand your post I guess.
But neither here or there. I think the concern is premature. But I was reacting more to this notion that there is a pattern of bad development with the Flames (Flames' fans are worked up because we've seen this movie before), where i don't see that.

I think top 10 picks definitely have different development expectations than later picks as the higher picks tend to be guys ready to make an impact soon.

The flames being in the middle really do not have many examples of developing top 10 picks. Monahan, Bennett, Tkachuk and Parekh are the only ones in the last 20+ years

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

No they haven’t and I didn’t say they did. This thread was created and it was a discussion on barnburner today so some folks are starting to get concerned.

Thing is, here is what you said:

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Parekh and Bennett equal 50% of the Flames top 10 picks in the cap era.

You seemed to be implying that the Flames have screwed up 50% of their top-10 picks in the cap era, meaning Bennett and Parekh.

[FlamesAddiction]

Parekh played in 11 of the Flames first 16 games before getting injured, then went to the WJC, came back injured, and is now on a conditioning stint. Some people make it sound like the Flames were just not letting him play. Eleven out of the first 16 games with limited ice-time isn't bad for a teenager defenseman coming right out of junior. It seems reasonably generous actually.

[indes]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Those are weak examples.
- Valimaki's career was de-railed by a serious knee injury that altered his mobility. He had ample opportunity to re-establish a career in Arizona, and after a single good season, is a fringe NHLer at best.
- Oliver Kylington was developed by the team into a good dman, though with some flaws. Lots of other factors on this one in terms of why he's now out of the NHL
- Rory Kerins may simply not play at the NHL required pace
- Connor Zary remains a WIP. To early to tell. Injuries a factor here as well.

None of these are compelling examples of the Flames screwing up development. I'm looking for other examples where a player has flourished once away from the Flames. I don't see those.

Mmmkay. Lots of goalpost moving going on here but that's fine, you could provide some examples as well. Can you show me some prospects from the Flames that have jumped up and down from the AHL and become solid NHLers? Because those are all of our top defensive prospects aside from Andersson (who also didn't yo yo around). Giordano left to play in Russia instead of continuing with the Flames development plan for him. It's been a long standing trend that the Flames prefer to play vets unless a young guy forces their hand like Gaudreau, Monahan or Tkachuk.

We can agree to disagree but in my opinion (which doesn't matter to anyone involved) Zayne should be playing in the NHL. I don't think Dickinson, Buium or Levshunov are going to bed every night upset that they're playing in the NHL instead of the AHL.

[MrButtons]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Parekh played in 11 of the Flames first 16 games before getting injured, then went to the WJC, came back injured, and is now on a conditioning stint. Some people make it sound like the Flames were just not letting him play. Eleven out of the first 16 games with limited ice-time isn't bad for a teenager defenseman coming right out of junior. It seems reasonably generous actually.

Nah he's too small but also underutilized so to build strength he should be playing 35 mins a night minimum. Well, that was until Murray got involved and forced conroy to trade for Whitecloud. This is fun am I doing it right?

[Enoch Root]

One of the challenges with Parekh, IMO, is that top picks are usually pretty much ready to go in the NHL. Parekh is somewhat unique however, in the sense that he has elite talent - more than enough for the NHL, but unlike most top players, he is further away from being ready to play in the NHL.

I think some struggle with this, and interpret it as a failure or a shortcoming on his part, making him a less valuable pick.

For me, I don't care where he is at 19, it doesn't matter. What matters is how good he can become. And his ceiling, IMO, is Hughes - well worth the patience and time it takes to get there.

Fans need to chill, and be patient with him. As does the organization - and I am confident they will be, as long as fans don't run him out of town first.