[News] Brent Seabrook added to Flames Player Development staff

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm just not a fan of assuming the worst without getting detailed information, which I don't believe we have on Seabrook.

Good news then, we have detailed information on what Seabrook did, or more accurately didn't do in this saga.

He didn't come forward despite knowing about it.
He didn't stop the victim from being verbally abused by teammates after the fact.
He didn't speak up when his organization sang the abuser's praises.
He hasn't, with hindsight, come forward to speak to the critical and massive failures made by his former organization while he was there and an on-ice leader within that organization.

Again, this shame isn't his alone but he does share in it. Trying to down play it, imply his role was lesser, or his failure to act was less problematic is a disservice to the severity of what was happening.

Only making these arguments vocally after he joins your organization is particularly cheap.

[Coach]

I just think that whole group of people is tainted until ANYONE comes forward to take some responsibility, acknowledge their part, or just straight up apologize to Beach for not saying something, or for making fun of him, or for whatever they did or didn't do. Then I will consider them to be men who I want young people learning from. Until then, GTFO.

If I was a parent with a kid going to teams being run with people like this, I'd have serious questions. If a highly-touted prospect openly said they wouldn't play for a team run by Bowman, coached by Q or whatever, my respect for them would go through the roof.

[Remember1989]

If this was my team and the GM wanted to hire one of the Blackhawks management or teammates who were part of the KB story, after hearing about the due diligence process they undertook to determine it made sense to hire that person, I would require that person to directly address that whole situation in the initial media availability and to take some appropriate level of accountability and to admit the awfulness of the whole situation and that mistakes were made. Knowing and appreciating that there were different levels of culpability.

I assume most wouldn’t want to do that, but if not they wouldn’t be working for me in that case. Wouldn’t want someone like that around the team and wouldn’t want the bad press.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Good news then, we have detailed information on what Seabrook did, or more accurately didn't do in this saga.

He didn't come forward despite knowing about it.
He didn't stop the victim from being verbally abused by teammates after the fact.
He didn't speak up when his organization sang the abuser's praises.
He hasn't, with hindsight, come forward to speak to the critical and massive failures made by his former organization while he was there and an on-ice leader within that organization.

Again, this shame isn't his alone but he does share in it. Trying to down play it, imply his role was lesser, or his failure to act was less problematic is a disservice to the severity of what was happening.

Only making these arguments vocally after he joins your organization is particularly cheap.

Wow ...

The bolded is way over the top.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Good news then, we have detailed information on what Seabrook did, or more accurately didn't do in this saga.

He didn't come forward despite knowing about it.
He didn't stop the victim from being verbally abused by teammates after the fact.
He didn't speak up when his organization sang the abuser's praises.
He hasn't, with hindsight, come forward to speak to the critical and massive failures made by his former organization while he was there and an on-ice leader within that organization.

Again, this shame isn't his alone but he does share in it. Trying to down play it, imply his role was lesser, or his failure to act was less problematic is a disservice to the severity of what was happening.

Only making these arguments vocally after he joins your organization is particularly cheap.

This where you lose the plot. Your level of outrage is your right, but people hear are telling you how they see the issue and how their outrage is not the level of yours. I think we can all agree that there are levels of complicity in this situation:

Perpetrator- can rot in hell
Management (Quennville, Bowman, other coaches and front office)- Suspension from the NHL for at least some time, arguably forever.
Players who insulted victim-Should have been suspended, but I can't see any world where that would be forever
Players who knew and did nothing-shameful act, open to ridicule, but suspension worthy? That is the discussion
Players who knew nothing-nothing

I don't recall the outrage when Kane moved on. Maybe it was there, but it wasn't based on homerism. He made millions more in earnings. Toews there was some discussion, but more so that he probably isn't a good player anymore. No real outrage.

Now we have Seabrook, a guy that is what? A part time player development coach? A guy that knows how to play defence and is now teaching defense? That is where we need to draw the line? The level of outrage does not match the harmful conduct nor the position Seabrook has been placed.

No team is beyond terrible behaviour (Canucks: see Virtanenen, Aquilini, Bertuzi, etc.). In fact any organization of any size will have these issues. I am at a smallish company, and unfortunately internal investigations of all shapes and sizes is part of my job. Sometimes that results in firings, but more often it results in more training, reprimands and the like. Not blackballing an individual forever, which seems to be your solution, unless you have other ideas you would like to share.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

This where you lose the plot. Your level of outrage is your right, but people hear are telling you how they see the issue and how their outrage is not the level of yours. I think we can all agree that there are levels of complicity in this situation:

Perpetrator- can rot in hell
Management (Quennville, Bowman, other coaches and front office)- Suspension from the NHL for at least some time, arguably forever.
Players who insulted victim-Should have been suspended, but I can't see any world where that would be forever
Players who knew and did nothing-shameful act, open to ridicule, but suspension worthy? That is the discussion
Players who knew nothing-nothing

I don't recall the outrage when Kane moved on. Maybe it was there, but it wasn't based on homerism. He made millions more in earnings. Toews there was some discussion, but more so that he probably isn't a good player anymore. No real outrage.

Now we have Seabrook, a guy that is what? A part time player development coach? A guy that knows how to play defence and is now teaching defense? That is where we need to draw the line? The level of outrage does not match the harmful conduct nor the position Seabrook has been placed.

No team is beyond terrible behaviour (Canucks: see Virtanenen, Aquilini, Bertuzi, etc.). In fact any organization of any size will have these issues. I am at a smallish company, and unfortunately internal investigations of all shapes and sizes is part of my job. Sometimes that results in firings, but more often it results in more training, reprimands and the like. Not blackballing an individual forever, which seems to be your solution, unless you have other ideas you would like to share.

The point is, there are lots of people who can do this. I'd rather it not be people who as young people learned that passing the buck and keeping your mouth shut is the way to solve problems. All people like Seabrook have to do is just be honest about their part and apologize. It's not THAT hard. Certainly not as hard as what Beach has gone through.

[InternationalVillager]

Blaster wants to create a generous circle around the Blackhawks organization around that time and publicly flog/humiliate/burn at the stake all members and all future careers should be no careers. Their lives should be terminated.

This is such asinine thinking.

[Lewis_D]

Originally Posted by Coach

The point is, there are lots of people who can do this. I'd rather it not be people who as young people learned that passing the buck and keeping your mouth shut is the way to solve problems.

Probably also just not worth it from a PR perspective either, whether the Flames feel differently about him from a morality standpoint or may know further info we don't, I still think you can find another person to do this without the baggage.

But yeah, I'm personally not thrilled about the hire. Just let Stone do his thing!

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by Coach

All people like Seabrook have to do is just be honest about their part and apologize. It's not THAT hard.

Seabrook doesn't owe us an apology.

If Conroy and Iginla (who he name dropped in his presser) are open to working with him and bringing him on board after knowing all the facts, then I am with them on this decision. Both of those guy's character is impeccable within hockey and outside of it.

But rather...we sit around throwing mud at the wall on an internet forum displaying our sense of righteous rage.....this world's lost the plot entirely.

There's more serious issues to discuss like Diddy getting found not guilty...go rage at that instead.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Maybe all of the things people want Seabrook to do to make amends for whatever he did or didn't know or did or didn't do was done privately. Not everything needs to be carried out in the public domain.

[Roof-Daddy]

Bystander syndrome is real.

The bulk of the rage should be aimed directly at the perpetrator. Most of the rage remaining should be pointed towards the actual people in power at the time who knew about it, had the power to do something about it, but instead worked to cover it up.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

Blaster wants to create a generous circle around the Blackhawks organization around that time and publicly flog/humiliate/burn at the stake all members and all future careers should be no careers. Their lives should be terminated.

This is such asinine thinking.

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Bystander syndrome is real.

The bulk of the rage should be aimed directly at the perpetrator. Most of the rage remaining should be pointed towards the actual people in power at the time who knew about it, had the power to do something about it, but instead worked to cover it up.

A little online chatter is barely scrutiny, let alone rage. It definitely isn't terminating someone's life.

[GioforPM]

The ChatGPT summary seems to include Seabrook as one of the "veteran players" and then sort of assigns all actions attributable to "veteran players" to necessarily include him, despite his name never been actually mentioned. One reason ChatGPT isn't great at analysis.

I know at least one veteran player (Hossa) who has fully denied knowing anything.

[Coach]

I think it stems from a lack of accountability for the people actually responsible for the situation and very few people coming forward to speak honestly about their own part in it (basically only people who say they didn't know). It taints the whole group of people because no one knows where the responsibility starts or ends. For example, from FBS's list:

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

I think we can all agree that there are levels of complicity in this situation:

Perpetrator- can rot in hell
Management (Quennville, Bowman, other coaches and front office)- Suspension from the NHL for at least some time, arguably forever.
Players who insulted victim-Should have been suspended, but I can't see any world where that would be forever
Players who knew and did nothing- shameful act, open to ridicule, but suspension worthy? That is the discussion
Players who knew nothing-nothing

None of the bolded happened. The NHL itself is complicit by not doing this IMO. So if you agree that the above should be held to that level of accountability, but none of it happened, the only thing left is the last thing mentioned "shame and ridicule" and that's what's happening. If everyone eventually just shrugs it off and it goes away, it will be like every other version of this type of nonsense and continue to happen. So yeah maybe Blaster and myself and some others can get a bit preachy and annoying about it. If no one does, it will just be forgotten about. OR they could actually just not hire these people and avoid it. I don't feel bad for the lost opportunity for millionaires to work in a single, very niche field. There are lots of fields. Go buy a farm.

I do think it's owed a public acknowledgment, because young people are still being sent to work under these people and deserve to know. I don't really care if Beach personally forgives them or not. That's his strength, not theirs. They have still yet to do the right thing.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Coach

I think it stems from a lack of accountability for the people actually responsible for the situation and very few people coming forward to speak honestly about their own part in it (basically only people who say they didn't know). It taints the whole group of people because no one knows where the responsibility starts or ends. For example, from FBS's list:



None of the bolded happened. The NHL itself is complicit by not doing this IMO. So if you agree that the above should be held to that level of accountability, but none of it happened, the only thing left is the last thing mentioned "shame and ridicule" and that's what's happening. If everyone eventually just shrugs it off and it goes away, it will be like every other version of this type of nonsense and continue to happen. So yeah maybe Blaster and myself and some others can get a bit preachy and annoying about it. If no one does, it will just be forgotten about. OR they could actually just not hire these people and avoid it. I don't feel bad for the lost opportunity for millionaires to work in a single, very niche field. There are lots of fields. Go buy a farm.

I do think it's owed a public acknowledgment, because young people are still being sent to work under these people and deserve to know. I don't really care if Beach personally forgives them or not. That's his strength, not theirs. They have still yet to do the right thing.

I just can't get behind the bolded statement. You simply can't assume everyone involved with the Hawks at that time is guilty simply because you don't know the facts and the truth. You are painting with broad strokes and I hope you don't find yourself in a situation where you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Mitts]

Love the hire and loved his interview from yesterday, seems like a good dude. Too many people with pitchforks and really no clue what happened in Chicago.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I just can't get behind the bolded statement. You simply can't assume everyone involved with the Hawks is guilty simply because you don't know the facts and the truth. You are simply painting with broad strokes.

No, but if they want assumptions to stop, just bring out the truth.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Coach

No, but if they want assumptions to stop, just bring out the truth.

Right because that's so realistic.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The ChatGPT summary seems to include Seabrook as one of the "veteran players" and then sort of assigns all actions attributable to "veteran players" to necessarily include him, despite his name never been actually mentioned. One reason ChatGPT isn't great at analysis.

I know at least one veteran player (Hossa) who has fully denied knowing anything.

Don't rely on ChatGPT summary, last week it told me Cullen Potter's mother passed away from breast cancer. Obviously finding info about the 2025 draft and Matthew Shaffer

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Right because that's so realistic.

Well if the truth is too hard to tell, people will keep thinking what they think. People who want the whining about to stop should want to truth too, I don't understand the apprehension about it.