The Flames Are Not Rebuilding: A Safe Space to Vent

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Disagree. If the Toffoli trade would have come with a 1st, reaction would be way better.

By far. It actually is the difference in strategic direction, to be honest. Even if it is slight.

If a first isn't available on such a trade...what is Conny supposed to do? Go get a gun and force another GM to give up a 2023 1st?

What an absolutely stupid take. People's expectations are so far out of the realm of reality that it is astounding.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by CDN

You're comparing a top liner for a bum. 2m for a former top line player and 80 points certainly Is worth a 1st to a contending team... you don't know what other underlying motives Philly had to drop Hayes

It was pretty widely known that Torts was not a fan, and with rookie management in place, he is calling a lot of the shots right now.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Can we rename this thread to "Just Kidding: Let's Make More Justifications For Mediocrity!"?

The real damage here is fans will continue to cling on to this false hope and will just lose interest in the Flames. It won't get better, just more of the same.

You realize the opinions expressed on this forum have no bearing on team strategy, right?

Like a lot of fans, I wish the Flames would rebuild. But I know the only person who can make that happen is Murray Edwards, and he doesn’t seem to want a rebuild. So the decision becomes:

A) Accept that the strategic direction of the team is completely out of our hands, and instead judge the team by how well it carries out the strategy it has chosen.

B) Rage against the decision not to rebuild.

Which is a fair choice - we all get to choose how to be a fan. But raging against fans who choose A as though they’re somehow to blame for the direction of the team is taking it a bit far.

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by transplant99

It was pretty widely known that Torts was not a fan, and with rookie management in place, he is calling a lot of the shots right now.

Haha. Doubtful. They aren't good and that's what is calling the shots.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Do you think this is the actual best they could have gotten for Toffoli?

He took the player to market. Presumably that was the best deal on the table. That’s the market.

I don’t subscribe to the notion that NHL trades are a battle that you can somehow win if you’re really cunning or forceful. Sure, it takes knowledge of the league and what’s available to put together a good picture of how the market looks at any given time. But in a fairly straightforward deal like this - a pending veteran UFA being dealt - you’re going to get some offers, there will be a bit of back and forth, and you either accept one of them or you don’t. There’s no trickery or mind-bending going on.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by memphusk

Haha. Doubtful. They aren't good and that's what is calling the shots.

It was a segment on Mareks show yesterday.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by blender

Do you actually believe they were offered a first but took this deal instead?

There are posters in this thread claiming this was Conroy's strategy all along. A little for now (Sharangovich), a little for later (3rd). It is entirely possible Conroy took this deal over a late first round pick. We don't actually know.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Tbh if Conroy’s plan is to re-tool around acquiring younger guys who haven’t quite popped yet from other teams while getting some draft capital in the process, I wouldn’t hate it

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by MrMike

I’d call it a half measure. Draft picks and prospects are rebuilding.

Honestly, other than an expansion team, are there any successful teams right now that have traded their way there instead of using high draft picks from a few rebuilding years? Other than the Rangers who get gifted players like Panarin and Fox, and even then they drafted twice in the top 2

I'd probably classify the Bruins as that team. After the cup in 2011, the highest they've drafted is 14th.

2014 - #25 Pastrnak
2015 - #15 DeBrusk
2016 - #14 McAvoy
2016 - #29 Frederic

They've hit on those four, and not much else in the first round (yet).

Krejci, Marchand and Bergeron are the three they've kept around this whole time and rebuilt around.

They acquired through trade: Zacha, Lindholm, Coyle, Orlov, Bertuzzi, Hathaway, Hall

Signed as UFA: Clifton, Nosek, Forbort, Foligno, Ullmark, Greer

Players from later rounds that have made the roster: Carlo, Grzelcyk, Swayman

Even Bergeron was 2nd #45 in 2003, Krejci 2nd #63 2004, and Marchand 3rd #71 2006.

Their producers have been good picks in lower spots.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You realize the opinions expressed on this forum have no bearing on team strategy, right?

Have I ever said anything to the contrary? Flames management are the ones who need to perform the cranialrectalectomy.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

A) Accept that the strategic direction of the team is completely out of our hands, and instead judge the team by how well it carries out the strategy it has chosen.

If the strategy is trash no matter how it is executed, I Think it's faire game.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Which is a fair choice - we all get to choose how to be a fan. But raging against fans who choose A as though they’re somehow to blame for the direction of the team is taking it a bit far.

If you support mediocrity with your dollar then you're complicit to it. You may just be there to have fun and not care if they win or lose, but you're still supporting this subpar product.

I've been patient. A lot of Flames fans have been patient. 30+ years now of this ####. It's getting old.

Only silver lining I see now is that Conroy is going to get such terrible middle of the road returns for his pending UFAs that the Flames will be hurled to the bottom of the standings and then they won't be able to continue this "we're still competitive" nonsense. Sadly all those assets that could have help kick start the rebuild will be gone and Conroy will have to bootstrap it. Fortunately for him he'll be shown the door before having to actually do real hockey management.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by cannon7

There are posters in this thread claiming this was Conroy's strategy all along. A little for now (Sharangovich), a little for later (3rd). It is entirely possible Conroy took this deal over a late first round pick. We don't actually know.

Jeebus. Maybe Chicago was going to give their pick. Maybe TB was offering Point for Toffoli. We don't actually know.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Jeebus. Maybe Chicago was going to give their pick. Maybe TB was offering Point for Toffoli. We don't actually know.

And the good faith arguing award goes to...

[Boreal]

Why people expect a full immediate rebuild with the Kadri, Weeger, and Huberdeau contracts is beyond me.

If you actually want to get rid of almost any of them with minimal pain, they need to rehabilitate their careers, and probably take a year, or two off of the deals, especially Huberdeau.

Honestly what is the hurry? Rushing a rebuild is an oxymoron.

Why waste assets and cap space to avoid being saddled with these contracts until they absolutely have to?

So they can suck and tank like the Oilers for a decade?

Why would anyone watch a Flames games instead of a Wranglers game if they did this?

Don’t like the Sharangovichdeal? He also can be traded at the deadline if he pops.

Ultimately you want players motivated. Money on a new contracts, or getting out of town.

Extract value out of your remaining roster so you can use them to reclaim and/or accumulate assets.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by cannon7

And the good faith arguing award goes to...

Pot, meet kettle.

I see those possibility as about as realistic as Conroy turning down firsts.

[Hot_Flatus]

I think the whole situation is just sad. Treliving and co. had said ad nauseum that you take your cues from your team, yet last summer when everything came crashing down, nobody took any cues from the team.

Instead of rebuilding and maximizing returns of youth and draft picks (which admittedly would have been hard coming off a fantastic regular season), the team chose to go at it again with Huberdeau/Weeger deals instead of more future laden deals or even the Necas rumored deal with Carolina.

Now the Flames are yet again in a retool on the fly mode to simply get a bit younger, and you simply don't win championships this way. You win by drafting and or trading for foundational pieces that take a year or two to develop. This team may stay competitive, but this road leads to exactly the same destination the franchise has arrived to over and over again.

The next 3-4 years look quite dismal once again, unless something massive happens in the next 4-5 hours to change the trajectory of this franchise.

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I think the whole situation is just sad. Treliving and co. had said ad nauseum that you take your cues from your team, yet last summer when everything came crashing down, nobody took any cues from the team.

Instead of rebuilding and maximizing returns of youth and draft picks (which admittedly would have been hard coming off a fantastic regular season), the team chose to go at it again with Huberdeau/Weeger deals instead of more future laden deals or even the Necas rumored deal with Carolina.

Now the Flames are yet again in a retool on the fly mode to simply get a bit younger, and you simply don't win championships this way. You win by drafting and or trading for foundational pieces that take a year or two to develop. This team may stay competitive, but this road leads to exactly the same destination the franchise has arrived to over and over again.

The next 3-4 years look quite dismal once again, unless something massive happens in the next 4-5 hours to change the trajectory of this franchise.

We are so far away from opening night that it's hard to believe that people are basing the trajectory of the franchise as dependent on the next 4-5 hours. There is plenty of opportunity to make changes and it's not dire that it gets done today. They could even hold on to assets and wait until the trade deadline to make additional moves. We've had one trade which saw us get younger and acquire an additional pick in a deep draft. Patience is going to be key and it's way too early to say the next 3-4 years are looking dismal.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

Tbh if Conroy’s plan is to re-tool around acquiring younger guys who haven’t quite popped yet from other teams while getting some draft capital in the process, I wouldn’t hate it

Even if the Flames stop trading picks it will feel like gains. BT traded picks to eagerly.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Pot, meet kettle.

I see those possibility as about as realistic as Conroy turning down firsts.

Let me break it down:

1. There are posters that are claiming a 1st wasn't on the table absent of evidence (other than point 2).

2. There are also posters (often the same ones) claiming this was Conroy's plan all along (not to take an all futures return).

3. I am saying point 2 doesn't negate 1 and in fact it is possible Conroy took the offer he did over a richer futures only offer. Again, absent of evidence. But I'm not making a definite claim, this is speculation.

4. You're claiming point 3 is unrealistic. But you're using point 2 to support point 1 and what I'm saying is point 2 can be true independently of point 1.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

Tbh if Conroy’s plan is to re-tool around acquiring younger guys who haven’t quite popped yet from other teams while getting some draft capital in the process, I wouldn’t hate it

There is nothing appealing about that strategy to me at all, but everyone will and is free to have their own views on what they want for the team.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Originally Posted by Spurs

There is nothing appealing about that strategy to me at all, but everyone will and is free to have their own views on what they want for the team.

Oh trust me, I want a rebuild. But I’m just trying to be realistic about what it seems like Conroy is currently doing