"Should the Flames call up Dustin Wolf?" Hockey News

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The question of whether Wolf is ready is only half of this. The other is whether you want to put him in this situation.

I think the question is whether they want to create a situation that's going to bring with it a lot of hurt feelings and division. Vladar has done his job as backup this season winning most games he starts so what message does that send to him? Markstrom has three years left on his contract and would likely be the unhappiest person in the building and there would be no going back as he would likely ask for a trade.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Eb0la11

It’s funny our prospects get ranked near the bottom yet our AHL team is number 1.

Not that I'm necessarily describing the Wranglers, but the top AHL teams are often those filled with older marginal NHL types who dominate the lesser players. Last year, The Heat lost out to such a team.

Philips is a great AHL player, but likley not a NHL player of any magnitude at all.

The correlation between AHL success and premium prospects can be small.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Elite players don’t play 100 AHL games.

Wolf is trending to be elite. He has been the best goalie in his league every year for the last 4 years.

If he was called up, it would take him 3-5 games to adjust to the level and then he would be a top 10 goalie, guaranteed.

Now that is a bold statement.

Especially since the (shorter) goalie we all hope Wolf can emulate certainly didn't have immediate success and took him a number of years to become a regular.

And especially since goalies are voo doo at the best of time.

[madmike]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think the question is whether they want to create a situation that's going to bring with it a lot of hurt feelings and division. Vladar has done his job as backup this season winning most games he starts so what message does that send to him? Markstrom has three years left on his contract and would likely be the unhappiest person in the building and there would be no going back as he would likely ask for a trade.

Would Markstrom asking for a trade really be a bad thing at this point? The real issue to me is he’s played so poorly he’s almost untradeable. Unless the Flames are willing to retain they’re stuck with him.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by madmike

Would Markstrom asking for a trade really be a bad thing at this point? The real issue to me is he’s played so poorly he’s almost untradeable. Unless the Flames are willing to retain they’re stuck with him.

He's very tradeable as I would imagine there would be several suitors such as the Sabres, Kings, or Senators, etc and it won't be a salary dump trade as the Flames will received assets in return. He will have to agree to the destination with his NMC.

[1qqaaz]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Every elite goalie plays in the NHL by age 22 or earlier. Most of them have substantial time at 21 or earlier. The only real recent exception is Shesterkin who was 23. Goalies don't take nearly as long to develop as people think they do. They also hit their peaks a lot earlier than people think they do.

The Flames have never given young goalies any chances. This is one of the faults in their development. They were patient with Irving. They were patient with Gillies. They didn't pan out.

All cup winning goalies in the past 50 years were acquired via draft, signing (with no prior NHL experience), or trade. Every single one. If the Flames win the cup, it'll be with Wolf or Vladar. Not Markstrom. No UFA goalie with prior NHL experience has ever won the cup.

I guarantee that Wolf, if playing in the NHL, would be better than Markstrom right now. Though that's not saying a lot.

[calgarygringo]

First rest Marky for a while and try to figure what's going on with him before totally throwing in the towel. Too valuable an asset to give up too quickly.
Let Vladar run with it longer term. We really don't know if he is just a good backup or can handle the pressures of a regular goalie yet and won't know until he runs with it.
Wolf is still very young goalie wise and won't hurt him playing Ahl. Unless both our goalies crash and burn leave him there and enjoy a long playoff run.
If both our goalies crash and burn Wolf probably can't save the day anyways. There is way more going on than just goalie issues. Go listen to Frankly Speaking podcast with Kadri interview and his insight as he mentions it a few times.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think the question is whether they want to create a situation that's going to bring with it a lot of hurt feelings and division. Vladar has done his job as backup this season winning most games he starts so what message does that send to him? Markstrom has three years left on his contract and would likely be the unhappiest person in the building and there would be no going back as he would likely ask for a trade.

All true, though I was more talking about how the team is currently playing in front of both goalies.

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Every elite goalie plays in the NHL by age 22 or earlier. Most of them have substantial time at 21 or earlier. The only real recent exception is Shesterkin who was 23. Goalies don't take nearly as long to develop as people think they do. They also hit their peaks a lot earlier than people think they do.

The Flames have never given young goalies any chances. This is one of the faults in their development. They were patient with Irving. They were patient with Gillies. They didn't pan out.

All cup winning goalies in the past 50 years were acquired via draft, signing (with no prior NHL experience), or trade. Every single one. If the Flames win the cup, it'll be with Wolf or Vladar. Not Markstrom. No UFA goalie with prior NHL experience has ever won the cup.

I guarantee that Wolf, if playing in the NHL, would be better than Markstrom right now. Though that's not saying a lot.

First, I’m not sure that there’s a meaningful difference between trading for a goalie and signing a UFA goalie. I mean, several UFA goalie signings have panned out well: Cujo in Toronto, Irbe in Carolina, Hasek in Detroit - and they won a cup albeit Osgood started more, and speaking of which, Osgood had actually been signed as a UFA by Detroit (he was drafted by them but had been with two other teams by then), Belfour in Dallas. Samsonov is doing Ok right now with Toronto.

There are a few teams now who are doing OK with goalies who took their time getting to the show: Logan Thompson is 25, Ullmark didn’t play until 24, Vanacek came up at 24.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

All true, though I was more talking about how the team is currently playing in front of both goalies.



First, I’m not sure that there’s a meaningful difference between trading for a goalie and signing a UFA goalie. I mean, several UFA goalie signings have panned out well: Cujo in Toronto, Irbe in Carolina, Hasek in Detroit - and they won a cup albeit Osgood started more, and speaking of which, Osgood had actually been signed as a UFA by Detroit (he was drafted by them but had been with two other teams by then), Belfour in Dallas. Samsonov is doing Ok right now with Toronto.

There are a few teams now who are doing OK with goalies who took their time getting to the show: Logan Thompson is 25, Ullmark didn’t play until 24, Vanacek came up at 24.

Difference could include age, cap efficiency, and general quality.
This is more of a correlation than a causation.

Thompson was 24, and Ullmark was 22. Wolf turns 22 in April.
He'll already be older than most of the elite goalies who have played in the past 20 years.

The ages of goalies at the beginning of the season in which they played their first NHL games (most of these are cup/Vezina winners):

Price: 20
Rask: 20
Markstrom: 20
Vasilevskiy: 20
Lehner: 19
Gibson: 20
Quick: 21
Holtby: 20
Fleury: 18
Rinne: 22
Crawford: 20
Thomas: 28* (tends to be an exception for everything)
Niemi: 25
Kuemper: 22
Sorokin: 25
Hellebuyck: 22
Oettinger: 20
Murray: 21
Kiprusoff: 23
Ward: 21

Again, as a matter of fact, goalies make NHL debuts are younger ages than people think they do. At least, this is the case in organizations that actually have a history of developing goalies.

[Hot_Flatus]

It doesn't matter what the age is if you aren't putting them in a situation to succeed.

The Flames are a hot mess this year and not exactly the best environment for someone to learn the NHL ropes right now. Combine that with the fact that he wouldn't necessarily receive consistent starts, and you are certainly entering an area where he is likely better off in the AHL with more stable, consistent work.

If the Flames are eliminated early, by all means, give the kid 3-4 games at the end of the year to be around the guys, backup, practice and possibly start a game or two, but if it's me, I'm not tossing him into the fray this year unless it is absolutely necessary.

[PepsiFree]

I don’t see how Wolf not debuting already is now being used as some sort of indictment of the franchise. He was a 7th round pick, he’s played great, but we also had great goaltending last year, have two guys signed, and haven’t had any injuries this year. Carrying three healthy goalies is generally not done so it’s pretty easy to see why he hasn’t gotten games.

As I said before, I’m all for trading Vladar to open up a spot, but let’s not act like this is somehow a developmental failure for not having Wolf in the NHL already. Relax.

[Teroy]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don’t see how Wolf not debuting already is now being used as some sort of indictment of the franchise. He was a 7th round pick, he’s played great, but we also had great goaltending last year, have two guys signed, and haven’t had any injuries this year. Carrying three healthy goalies is generally not done so it’s pretty easy to see why he hasn’t gotten games.

As I said before, I’m all for trading Vladar to open up a spot, but let’s not act like this is somehow a developmental failure for not having Wolf in the NHL already. Relax.

Why the hell would we trade Vladar?

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Teroy

Why the hell would we trade Vladar?

I don't think it's a desire to do so, but it's an easier path to get that done since he's (A) performing decently, (B) has a shorter contract than Markstrom and (C) without an NMC.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Teroy

Why the hell would we trade Vladar?

Easier to move than Markstrom (better stats and cheaper contract, meaning we could recoup a better pick) and playing worse than his record suggests so could be a sell-high situation.

[TheScorpion]

Vladar really hasn't been all that good. A real sell-high candidate if there ever was one.

[Northendzone]

it would seem the path forward for wolf to be in the NHL is for the flames to bite the bullet and somehow trade markstrom and go with a somewhat unproven tandem of vladar and wolf.

or trade vladar - which would likely be easy given his contract; however, i feel most of us here on CP would lose our minds

based on how sutter has deployed markstrom this season, i would reckon he would likely not be a huge fan of this kind of move - but that is pure conjecture on my part

seems to me the bottom line is, if you believe in wolf, then he needs to be playing in calgary next season as it appears he has done all he can in the AHL

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Vladar really hasn't been all that good. A real sell-high candidate if there ever was one.

Yup, I think if you switch games played with Markstrom the record wouldn't really be all that much different. He hasn't really stole any games. Markstrom also looks like a good teammate from photos with Vladar

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

What?

I think Vladar has been full marks for his good record

The (former?) Markstrom sympathizers here said it themselves.. this is not an easy team to play behind

Erratic grade A chances given up after stretches where the goalie does not get to feel the puck

The only game he's not collected points over the last 14 he gave up 2 goals.. And the line deployed on the winning goal went full controller disconnect

To give marky the benefit of the doubt and then claim the opposite of Vladar and call it an opportunity to sell high is hysterical

[Scroopy Noopers]

People having open dialogue about the goalies we have doesn’t make them “sympathizers”. Vladar has started games that backups start, pretty much all season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Difference could include age, cap efficiency, and general quality.
This is more of a correlation than a causation.

Thompson was 24, and Ullmark was 22. Wolf turns 22 in April.
He'll already be older than most of the elite goalies who have played in the past 20 years.

The ages of goalies at the beginning of the season in which they played their first NHL games (most of these are cup/Vezina winners):

Price: 20
Rask: 20
Markstrom: 20
Vasilevskiy: 20
Lehner: 19
Gibson: 20
Quick: 21
Holtby: 20
Fleury: 18
Rinne: 22
Crawford: 20
Thomas: 28* (tends to be an exception for everything)
Niemi: 25
Kuemper: 22
Sorokin: 25
Hellebuyck: 22
Oettinger: 20
Murray: 21
Kiprusoff: 23
Ward: 21

Again, as a matter of fact, goalies make NHL debuts are younger ages than people think they do. At least, this is the case in organizations that actually have a history of developing goalies.

You are counting quite a few cup of coffee debuts - between 1-5 games. I was looking at when those goalies actually came up and played as a regular backup or even third goalie, which is the proposal in question. Kipper played 5 games as a 23 year old. Rask played 4 games as a 20 year old, and only 1 the next year. MAF is a first overall pick so they tried him in 20 games as an 18 year old - then sent him to the minors for 2+ years.

So if you are talking giving Wolf a couple games at the end of the season, fine. If you are talking about bringing him in as a regular, use those kind of examples.