Are NTCs and NMCs Ruining the Game?

[Beatle17]

The only issue I have with NTC or NMC is when a player and team negotiates one then either party wants to break it, i.e. players demanding trades but to only certain teams, or teams trying to trade players with the clauses. If you negotiated it, live up to it.

Managers need to do a better job about handing them out.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Yes players didn't want to go to Edmonton. But i guarantee you that players would today. Having a quality team outweighs the location most of the time. Build a non-joke of a franchise and players will want to play there.

NTC are mostly irrelevant unless you are a joke organization

Not true. Burke has commented that if a player has a 10 team NTC, you can guarantee every Canadian city except Vancouver and maybe Toronto is on that list.

Aging vets chasing a Cup might look at the quality of the team. But for most players it’s about climate, lifestyle, and for American players, proximity to family.

The Panthers have been one of the worst franchises in the NHL for the last 15 years, and they have no trouble attracting free agents, and I doubt they are any many no-trade lists. The Sharks look like they’re going to go through a long stint of missing the playoffs, but nobody is going to start putting them on no-trade lists.

Meanwhile, Nate Schmidt had the Jets on his NTC, but accepted a trade to the Canucks. That doesn’t look like a decision based on team quality. According to polls of agents, Winnipeg is on more NTCs than any other team in the NHL. Does the Jets on-ice performance over the last five years warrant that kind of antipathy?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Not true. Burke has commented that if a player has a 10 team NTC, you can guarantee every Canadian city except Vancouver and maybe Toronto is on that list.

Aging vets chasing a Cup might look at the quality of the team. But for most players it’s about climate, lifestyle, and for American players, proximity to family.

The Panthers have been one of the worst franchises in the NHL for the last 15 years, and they have no trouble attracting free agents, and I doubt they are any many no-trade lists. The Sharks look like they’re going to go through a long stint of missing the playoffs, but nobody is going to start putting them on no-trade lists.

Meanwhile, Nate Schmidt had the Jets on his NTC, but accepted a trade to the Canucks. That doesn’t look like a decision based on team quality. According to polls of agents, Winnipeg is on more NTCs than another team in the NHL. Does the Jets on-ice performance over the last five years warrant that kind of antipathy?

Exactly why there are 179 players with NMCs/NTCs in the the NHL as opposed to very few in other leagues. If the NHL wants teams in those markets, they should give them the opportunities when it comes to player acquisition.

I imagine there are a few American teams that are also affected by this. Probably about 1/3rd of the league is disadvantaged by the current movement clause rules.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Not true. Burke has commented that if a player has a 10 team NTC, you can guarantee every Canadian city except Vancouver and maybe Toronto is on that list.

Aging vets chasing a Cup might look at the quality of the team. But for most players it’s about climate, lifestyle, and for American players, proximity to family.

The Panthers have been one of the worst franchises in the NHL for the last 15 years, and they have no trouble attracting free agents, and I doubt they are any many no-trade lists. The Sharks look like they’re going to go through a long stint of missing the playoffs, but nobody is going to start putting them on no-trade lists.

Meanwhile, Nate Schmidt had the Jets on his NTC, but accepted a trade to the Canucks. That doesn’t look like a decision based on team quality. According to polls of agents, Winnipeg is on more NTCs than another team in the NHL. Does the Jets on-ice performance over the last five years warrant that kind of antipathy?

I literally said "Winnipeg is Winnipeg" - So I guess thanks for supporting that part of my post

The Flames have had no problems attracting FA's. Neither has Edmonton. Or Montreal. FA's seem to go where the $$ is.

In fact, the Canadian team have some of the larger FA signings over the past years

And FA signings aren't the same as blocking a trade. That is having a choice of every team. That isn't how a trade works. A lot of the times it is be traded for a chance to revive your career/have a more prominent role vs stay on team that either sucks or is not playing you.

Again - If this is such an issue why are there so few examples.

It is a non issue except that Kadri blocked a trade to Calgary for 2 assets that we no longer have.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Exactly why there are 179 players with NMCs/NTCs in the the NHL as opposed to very few in other leagues. If the NHL wants teams in those markets, they should give them the opportunities when it comes to player acquisition.

I imagine there are a few American teams that are also affected by this. Probably about 1/3rd of the league is disadvantaged by the current movement clause rules.

Because players don't want to up route their family? Take kids out of school, etc?

You sign for 5 years in a city and want to ensure that is where you are raising your family for 5 years.

The actual issue is players leave something ($) on the table to get a NTC as part of their contract negotiation, and then fans expect then to waive them because they don't want them on their team anymore.

Imagine you work gave you a 5 year contract with a no relocation clause and then tried to relocate you to a new city. Would you just say "Well thats cool - I negotiated this and gave up a higher salary for this clause"

Anyone who thinks Calgary sucks because of NTC's is dillusional. This is Edmonton esq excuses from the past.

However I have no doubts players may not want to come here. Why would they?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I literally said "Winnipeg is Winnipeg" - So I guess thanks for supporting that part of my post

The Flames have had no problems attracting FA's. Neither has Edmonton. Or Montreal. FA's seem to go where the $$ is.

In fact, the Canadian team have some of the larger FA signings over the past years

And FA signings aren't the same as blocking a trade. That is having a choice of every team. That isn't how a trade works. A lot of the times it is be traded for a chance to revive your career/have a more prominent role vs stay on team that either sucks or is not playing you.

Again - If this is such an issue why are there so few examples.

It is a non issue except that Kadri blocked a trade to Calgary for 2 assets that we no longer have.

Brian Burke has been at the table and he says it's an issue. I don't know why he would lie.

The Kadri deal was only different because of how it happened and how it was leaked. Treliving went after the player before he submitted his list and didn't find out well into the process that he was going to put Calgary on it. The Leafs should have told him that he was going on the block and to submit a list first. Most of the time when a GM asks a player to submit a list or waive completely, the deal isn't on the verge of being completed. It's done at the beginning of the process.

You hear about this sort of thing all the time. You don't necessarily always hear what teams are on their list, but it's not hard to infer that it is the usual suspects.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Not true. Burke has commented that if a player has a 10 team NTC, you can guarantee every Canadian city except Vancouver and maybe Toronto is on that list.

Aging vets chasing a Cup might look at the quality of the team. But for most players it’s about climate, lifestyle, and for American players, proximity to family.

The Panthers have been one of the worst franchises in the NHL for the last 15 years, and they have no trouble attracting free agents, and I doubt they are any many no-trade lists. The Sharks look like they’re going to go through a long stint of missing the playoffs, but nobody is going to start putting them on no-trade lists.

Meanwhile, Nate Schmidt had the Jets on his NTC, but accepted a trade to the Canucks. That doesn’t look like a decision based on team quality. According to polls of agents, Winnipeg is on more NTCs than another team in the NHL. Does the Jets on-ice performance over the last five years warrant that kind of antipathy?

I like Brian Burke. But, Brian Burke is a blowhard who exaggerates the perils of operating in Canada (see his grossly overstated rants on taxes).

IMO it's him trying to rationalize/justify his failures in Canada. A Stanley Cup is a Stanley Cup, but I think there is also some context to his win in ANA...those first years coming out of the lockout were a bit of a crapshoot. He inherited young studs/high picks Getzlaf/Perry/Ryan/Lupul*/Smid* and a team who had made the finals in 2003 (Giguere)...the team was dramatically different than that one, but he was starting with pretty good field position.

So he had a relatively easy time trading* for Pronger because of his asset base. He probably had an easy time signing Niedermayer and Selanne because of familiarity and family and being a good team, moreso than ANA being a nice place to live.


Random footnote: A McDonald, Penner, and Kunitz were all undrafted players (acquired pre-Burke). They combined for 28 pts in those playoffs. Not sure if there were any other UD's on that team, but there might be a record there?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Because players don't want to up route their family? Take kids out of school, etc?

You sign for 5 years in a city and want to ensure that is where you are raising your family for 5 years.

The actual issue is players leave something ($) on the table to get a NTC as part of their contract negotiation, and then fans expect then to waive them because they don't want them on their team anymore.

Imagine you work gave you a 5 year contract with a no relocation clause and then tried to relocate you to a new city. Would you just say "Well thats cool - I negotiated this and gave up a higher salary for this clause"

Anyone who thinks Calgary sucks because of NTC's is dillusional. This is Edmonton esq excuses from the past.

However I have no doubts players may not want to come here. Why would they?

So players in other leagues don't mind uprooting their families?

And if it's a money issue, come up with a way to compensate the player for that.

Also, not saying that is why Calgary sucks. It is just one more thing that makes it difficult to ice the best product possible, and providing the best product possible is what any business should be focused. Sports leagues are not like regular businesses. The storefront/work site office, or whatever you want to think of it as, isn't geographically specific.

Technically, a player agrees to "join" the NHL by signing a contract. It's not a job. When you agree to join a club, you agree to their terms and conditions and one of those is that you can be moved to other areas. So trying to apply normal workplace rules is meaningless. If you don't like the terms and conditions of a private club, don't join. Go get a job instead.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I literally said "Winnipeg is Winnipeg" - So I guess thanks for supporting that part of my post

The Flames have had no problems attracting FA's. Neither has Edmonton. Or Montreal. FA's seem to go where the $$ is.

In fact, the Canadian team have some of the larger FA signings over the past years

And FA signings aren't the same as blocking a trade. That is having a choice of every team. That isn't how a trade works. A lot of the times it is be traded for a chance to revive your career/have a more prominent role vs stay on team that either sucks or is not playing you.

Again - If this is such an issue why are there so few examples.

It is a non issue except that Kadri blocked a trade to Calgary for 2 assets that we no longer have.

We really don't know this, since there's not much info on UFAs that Calgary has approached. Other than the Stone trade fell through because Stone refused to agree to even open himself to a talk with Calgary on an extension, but did exactly that with Vegas.

We know Calgary has missed on guys they had some interest in - Tavares, Neidermayer, for example, though I don't know what the factors were. TBF, they did get ROR to sign an offer sheet.

[Purpdust]

I am fine with NMCs & NTCs. It is a contract between a player and a team.

If that player takes a home team discount, I expect the same loyally from the team by providing a NMC.

If a player excepts a lower than market contract because of Taxes, I expect them to request a NMC (ie Stamkos)

Does anyone know if you can write in the contract that your Pay goes up by X% if traded or moved? That would be interesting

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Purpdust

Does anyone know if you can write in the contract that your Pay goes up by X% if traded or moved? That would be interesting

Not in the NHL.

You do see it in MLB.


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[albertGQ]

Brad Richards also chose the Rangers over the Flames and took less money doing that.

The cost of living in NYC is much higher than Calgary as well


I don't blame him. I'd take NYC over Calgary any day. Even for less money and in a higher taxed city/state

[Flamescuprun2018]

Interesting thread. I am increasingly of the opinion that it is no fluke that not a single Canadian team has lifted Lord Stanley since 1993.

For me there are three major issues tilting things heavily in favor of US franchises:

1. Differences in take come pay relative to same cap. A truly even playing field is a cap that has an adjustment factor (for differences in taxes). UFA costs are that much higher for Canadian team to compete for a contract.

2. The ridiculous UFA rule for US college players being allowed to become UFAs after 4th year in College. If you are drafted by a team you are that team's property if they sign you until UFA years, period.

3. No trade clauses or NMC. Abolish them until age 35 or at least 32. Should not exist until well into UFA years when players have kids in schools whereby movement is much more disruptive. Canadian teams are constantly handcuffed by this, since on every players no trade list partially because of 1 (less take home pay), increased media pressure and climate.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Flamescuprun2018

Interesting thread. I am increasingly of the opinion that it is no fluke that not a single Canadian team has lifted Lord Stanley since 1993.

For me there are three major issues tilting things heavily in favor of US franchises:

1. Differences in take come pay relative to same cap. A truly even playing field is a cap that has an adjustment factor (for differences in taxes). UFA costs are that much higher for Canadian team to compete for a contract.

2. The ridiculous UFA rule for US college players being allowed to become UFAs after 4th year in College. If you are drafted by a team you are that team's property if they sign you until UFA years, period.

3. No trade clauses or NMC. Abolish them until age 35 or at least 32. Should not exist until well into UFA years when players have kids in schools whereby movement is much more disruptive. Canadian teams are constantly handcuffed by this, since on every players no trade list partially because of 1 (less take home pay), increased media pressure and climate.

Are you also changing the rule which effectively allows junior players to become UFA’s after 4 years if they choose not to sign?

And good luck getting players to sign off on the abolition of NTC and NMC. Not going to happen. It’s a nice thought, but just a dream. I doubt the league cares if Canadian teams don’t win the SC.


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[Bonded]

It is pretty easy looking at UFA signings in Edmonton and Calgary too see that they are at a disadvantage. Who are the biggest pure UFA signings for either team in the last decade Markstrom, Neal, and Lucic?

[Flamescuprun2018]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Are you also changing the rule which effectively allows junior players to become UFA’s after 4 years if they choose not to sign?

And good luck getting players to sign off on the abolition of NTC and NMC. Not going to happen. It’s a nice thought, but just a dream. I doubt the league cares if Canadian teams don’t win the SC.


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Sure lets remove rule for junior players becoming UFAs as well. Rarely happens anyways.

All a pipe dream of course. Nothing will change. Just pointing out our reality as Canadian team NHL fans.

[dino7c]

Yep guys like Lucic and Neal were offered substantially more to come to Calgary/Edmonton

To pretend it's not harder to attract free agents compared to NYC, Vegas, SJ, ect. is too ridiculous to even debate. A million more and an extra year+


Calgary, Winnipeg, Edmonton, on 90% of no trade lists

Is Vegas or NYC on any?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Bonded

It is pretty easy looking at UFA signings in Edmonton and Calgary too see that they are at a disadvantage. Who are the biggest pure UFA signings for either team in the last decade Markstrom, Neal, and Lucic?

Try any team other than PHI or NYR.

Some random teams 5+x5+ deals:

ARI's big fish were Jovanovski and Goligoski

NYI - Ladd
NAS - Duchene
BUF - Okposo
TBL - Filppula and Carle
NJD - Cammalleri
MIN - Parise, Suter, Zuccarello
FLA - Bobrovsky, Yandle, Bolland
COL - R Smyth
CBJ - Wisniewksi, Horton

DET - Rafalski*, Nielsen
PIT - Gonchar*, Martin
WAS - Orpik*
CHI - Hossa*, B Campbell** (1 of the 3)
BOS - Chara*, Backes

*Cup winning signings.

CGY - Bouwmeester, Neal, Wideman, Markstrom
EDM - Pronger, Lucic, Souray, Sekera
VAN - Eriksson, Myers
TOR - Tavares

I compiled this over a year ago, so might be missing some recent ones.

[N-E-B]

I hate them but they’re never going away.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Try any team other than PHI or NYR.

Some random teams 5+x5+ deals:

ARI's big fish were Jovanovski and Goligoski

NYI - Ladd
NAS - Duchene
BUF - Okposo
TBL - Filppula and Carle
NJD - Cammalleri
MIN - Parise, Suter, Zuccarello
FLA - Bobrovsky, Yandle, Bolland
COL - R Smyth
CBJ - Wisniewksi, Horton

DET - Rafalski*, Nielsen
PIT - Gonchar*, Martin
WAS - Orpik*
CHI - Hossa*, B Campbell** (1 of the 3)
BOS - Chara*, Backes

*Cup winning signings.

CGY - Bouwmeester, Neal, Wideman, Markstrom
EDM - Pronger, Lucic, Souray, Sekera
VAN - Eriksson, Myers
TOR - Tavares

I compiled this over a year ago, so might be missing some recent ones.

A lot of players don't make it to UFA because they are traded to where they are willing to sign away their UFA years like Stone.

I also don't think anyone is suggesting Toronto has trouble with free agents. Wouldn't mind league min Jumbo or Spezza ect.