2021: Vatican Calls Homosexuality a "Sin"

[Dion]

I think that the root problem with catholicism lies in their dogma that Catholic Church is perfect and unfallible, since it is the body of Christ. A perfect Catholic Church stems down to a perfect Catholic Institution which stems down to view the whole catholic norms, system, processes, hierarchy, nominations, discipline as divinely perfect.

How can constructive criticism find a way in this scenario? All their wrongs consistently go to “some of their members”, and there is nothing their leaders can do or are accountable for. This belief system went as far are covering up heinous crimes and buying off silence from denouncers, journalists or the judiciary. This is what keeps the Catholic Church stagnant while the world moves forward in all grounds including morals.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-Cat...-hated-so-much

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I respect your personal position and your ability to disagree with some of the more hateful teachings of the catholic church.

However, this is exactly what I was talking about.

In some countries where the catholic faith is dominant and being gay is against the law, punishments range from a few years in prison or a psychiatric hospital to life in prison.

Yes, there are a handful of countries (8 I believe, primarily Islam) where punishments include whipping/lashes, stoning, and death. Congratulations, your religion is not sentencing people to death. It's also not stopping anyone from putting people in prison for life. So is that really a moral high ground you want to take? Like, we may be bad, but we're not killing people, so we're actually pretty good?

Knowing what Muslims have been through in 1st world countries, it's incredible that a Catholic might pretend for even a moment their religion is "the whipping boy." I'm sorry people make jokes while your religion of choice relegates whole sections of the population to hell and nurtures a welcoming space for the imprisonment of gay men and the rape of young boys. That must be difficult compared to being profiled, beat up, told you're not welcome, or actually killed, all of which people in other religions have actually experienced frequently in the western world because they follow that religion. Yes, I'm sure jokes hurt, but I have a difficult time believing any catholic that views themselves or their religion as victims because "jokes." Especially when the actual victims of discrimination here, the LGBTQ+ community, are being discriminated against by your religion.

If you want to talk about religions that are much worse than Catholics in their treatment of homosexuality, why not also mention the religions that are much better? United, Presbyterian, and much of Judaism outside Orthodoxy all seem to have figured it out, to name a few.

What stops a Catholic who disagrees with so much of the Catholic church from leaving and joining United or Presbyterian, I wonder? I have never really understood this. What is so good about this version of Christianity, that you would actively support an organization you disagree with instead of finding one with values closer to your own?

I think a lot of it comes down to time invested, and you aren't going to get all your friends and family to switch. Like, just because the Flames signed Bertuzzi, doesn't mean you are going to become a Pittsburgh fan.

[OldDutch]

I was raised Catholic, but haven't been to church since my sons were baptized. When we were married we had to go to marriage prep class in the basement of the church and while ok, they played a video called "Catholics come home" appealing to everyone to return to regular service (as I imagine attendance is way down).

While the video was good, and I have toyed with going to mass again, I can't bring myself to do it. Every club has rules, and if this is their rules, power to them, but I don't have to be part of it, or force my young sons. I couldn't imagine their hurt being dragged to a hateful place, only to grow up possibly Gay themselves and feel so destroyed by it.

Sorry (not sorry) but not sure if I intentionally walk into a church for a mass ever again.

[Barnet Flame]

I volunteer at our local Foodbank. The accommodation and a material amount of the donations is provided by the Catholic Church and its community.

When founded, and to this day it was funded and supported by denominations across the Christian faiths.

Yet, it provides food, support and guidance on welfare to the wider community. We package up Kosher and Halal food parcels.

As an almost completely lapsed Catholic, I find many tenets of the faith abhorrent. This statement being one of those things.

But as others with critical thought, I reject the tenets I find abhorrent. I know some Priests that have done the same. I remember back in Calgary when my Dad, had terrible drinking problems and the violence that accompanied that, our Priest provided support to my Mom and after time had passed with no prospect of an end to the terror, he supported my Mom in filing for divorce.

These organisations, Catholic or otherwise, you don’t have to buy in it all. I don’t. But I do try to take active involvement in the aspects of it that are good and congruent with my moral compass.

I very much doubt there is a god, and am almost certain, there is no god that is anything like any man made religion (all of them). I don’t expect to be burning in hell as a consequence, but there are elements, I find helpful and I engage in them and have made wonderful friendships as a result and appreciate the support I got as a child when I needed it most.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

I volunteer at our local Foodbank. The accommodation and a material amount of the donations is provided by the Catholic Church and its community.

When founded, and to this day it was funded and supported by denominations across the Christian faiths.

Yet, it provides food, support and guidance on welfare to the wider community. We package up Kosher and Halal food parcels.

As an almost completely lapsed Catholic, I find many tenets of the faith abhorrent. This statement being one of those things.

But as others with critical thought, I reject the tenets I find abhorrent. I know some Priests that have done the same. I remember back in Calgary when my Dad, had terrible drinking problems and the violence that accompanied that, our Priest provided support to my Mom and after time had passed with no prospect of an end to the terror, he supported my Mom in filing for divorce.

These organisations, Catholic or otherwise, you don’t have to buy in it all. I don’t. But I do try to take active involvement in the aspects of it that are good and congruent with my moral compass.

I very much doubt there is a god, and am almost certain, there is no god that is anything like any man made religion (all of them). I don’t expect to be burning in hell as a consequence, but there are elements, I find helpful and I engage in them and have made wonderful friendships as a result and appreciate the support I got as a child when I needed it most.

That's great you had a supportive community. The young gay kid going through struggles around his identity may be having a less positive experience today, which is kind of the issue.

[Bunk]

God, I love being an atheist. So freeing from this ancient nonsense.

[Dion]

Back in the early 2000s I had an uncle in Winnipeg who told the rest of the family that he was gay and more importantly that he hated God for making him that way. We all knew by his mannerisms even though he tried to hide it.

He was living with another man and they both were accepted and well received by their neighbours and friends. There was a large turnout of support at his funeral when he passed away years later.

I lhave always thought, how can it be a sin when you're born that way?

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Sliver

That's great you had a supportive community. The young gay kid going through struggles around his identity may be having a less positive experience today, which is kind of the issue.

And I said the position of the church on it is abhorrent. I’ve said as much from within as well. I shared my experience and I made my position clear.

I’m well aware of what is “kind of the issue”.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I don't know how people can follow this ####.

They follow it because they are scared of what happens after they are dead. For most people, entropy is a good enough answer but many need more hocus pocus magic answers. Combine that with fear of missing out and there you have it. A magic pill to fix everything.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I mapped those countries against the dominant religion.

35/70 follow Islam
30/70 follow Christianity
5/70 follow Buddhism or Hinduism

Did you by chance capture this data in a form you can share? This is a really interesting way of looking at it that I'd like to be able to share around.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Reaper

They follow it because they are scared of what happens after they are dead. For most people, entropy is a good enough answer but many need more hocus pocus magic answers. Combine that with fear of missing out and there you have it. A magic pill to fix everything.

I love that you just FOMO'd religion.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Reaper

They follow it because they are scared of what happens after they are dead. For most people, entropy is a good enough answer but many need more hocus pocus magic answers. Combine that with fear of missing out and there you have it. A magic pill to fix everything.

This might be the one of the more simplistic, ignorant posts on the topic.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by 81MC

This might be the one of the more simplistic, ignorant posts on the topic.

No more ignorant than declaring that everybody who doesn't believe what they do will be tortured for all eternity.

[Matata]

Friendly reminder the Vatican owns a whole bunch of gay bathhouses. The Vatican is basically a den of closeted gays and pedophiles. ="https://www.salon.com/2013/03/12/the_vatican_plays_landlord_to_europes_biggest_gay_ bathhouse/"]https://www.salon.com/2013/03/12/the_vatican_plays_landlord_to_europes_biggest_gay_ bathhouse/[/URL]

The Vatican has a vested interest in keeping homosexuality taboo. At its heart it's an institution of power mongering, and complex power structures require robust blackmail systems to keep the money and power flowing up. It used to be that pedophilia and homosexuality were equally reviled in the public sphere. The vatican needs gay bishops and deacons living in perpetual fear of exposure and exile.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by blankall

Honestly, at least they are being up front and honest with their stance now. That previous push they were making about homosexuality not being a sin...as long as you never act on it in any way, was pretty offensive. It was getting very tiresome listening to anti-gay advocates push their views as progressive and accepting. The argument that they were okay with homosexuality, but if a homosexual ever acted on their urges they would spend an eternity suffering, was anything but progressive or accepting.

Isn’t that still their stance? By some accounts many - if not most - of the high prelates and functionaries at the Vatican are closeted homosexuals. But they feel it’s only a sin if they acknowledge and act on their desires.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by blankall

I've always found it very strange that many of the hardcore communist nations are anti-gay. In the west we associate gay rights groups with the left wing. I guess, when places like China turned to communism, the world, generally, was anti-gay. They then became locked into the doctrines they had at the time.

Tolerance of non-traditional sexual identities and behaviours maps to liberalism, not leftism. Collective-minded societies often favour traditional values, and are typically hostile to what they see as selfish, individualistic behaviours. You’ll find a lot of these countries with laws against homosexuality also have strict penalties for things like adultery and illicit drug use. This is the case even in unreligious states like China, Russia, and Singapore.

Part of it is also politics. Since almost all of the countries that are tolerant of non-conventional sexual behaviours are in the West, regimes can bolster their anti-Western bonafides by denouncing homosexuality as ‘Western decadence.’

[Flamenspiel]

I think Iran has it on the books as a capital crime. The ultimate price, how sad.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Reaper

They follow it because they are scared of what happens after they are dead. For most people, entropy is a good enough answer but many need more hocus pocus magic answers. Combine that with fear of missing out and there you have it. A magic pill to fix everything.

You do realize that the vast majority of populations across Canada, North America and around the world have religious affiliations right?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Reaper

They follow it because they are scared of what happens after they are dead. For most people, entropy is a good enough answer but many need more hocus pocus magic answers. Combine that with fear of missing out and there you have it. A magic pill to fix everything.

I think you’re greatly overestimating how many people are irreligious. In Canada, only 8 per cent of people say they’re atheist, and 5 per cent agnostic. 55 per cent of Canadians say religion is important to their lives, with 29 per cent saying it’s very important.

Don’t let your social circle or forums like this give you a false picture of the makeup of the general population.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ion-in-canada/

[D as in David]

This is the kind of thing that could eventually lead to them and other organizations that support hatred (IMO, this falls under that definition but I'm sure people would debate it) losing their tax-free status, likely brought on by social media backlash. Can you imagine a non-religious non-profit spouting similar principles and not losing their non-profit status?