This team needs a star centre and we have the pieces to get one.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

TBF, who are the top centres? McDavid, Matthews, MacKinnon all went #1. Eichler, Draisaitl, went 2,3. Guys like Point - everyone took a pass on, not just Calgary (and TB already had a first overall C).

Yeah, that's the dumb luck part. All three of those elite C's were picked #1 overall while the Flames were rebuilding. 2013, 2015 and 2016.

In 2014 the oilers grab Draisaitl instead of Bennett. Flames get Bennett with the next pick. Dumb luck.

All 4 of those years the Flames are rebuilding, and all 4 of those years an elite 1C gets taken in the top 3 but the Flames come up empty on that front. We end up with a good (but not elite) 1C in Monahan, a depth winger at best in Bennett, and a top line winger in Tkachuk. The 2015 pick is a mid round pick because the Flames have a ridiculous amount of come backs and manage to make the playoffs, so they trade it for Hamilton, turns out they could have had Barzal, but whatever, it's hard to fault that chain when it ends with a Lindholm and Hanifin being Flames.

And then yeah, as you mentioned. they miss the boat on Point. Lots of teams passed him I get it. But the Flames ALWAYS pass on guys like that, that's why we never have them and watch teams like Tampa contend every year and win a Cup with guys like that.

Combination of dumb luck and incompetence.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Hmm... I wonder how we're ever going to get our hands on a 30-goal scoring, point per game star center?

Nevermind! I think i misread the post.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Going back to 2003, I count:
4 Star Players
7 Impact Players
9 First Round-Busts

Spoiler!

NHL Totals Only

2020 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2020 Entry 24 1 Connor Zary C Kamloops Blazers [WHL]

2019 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2019 Entry 26 1 Jakob Pelletier L Moncton Wildcats [QMJHL]

2018 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2018 Entry 105 4 Martin Pospisil C Sioux City Musketeers [USHL]

2017 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2017 Entry 16 1 Juuso Valimaki D Tri-City Americans [WHL] 38 1 7 8 18

2016 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2016 Entry 6 1 Matthew Tkachuk L London Knights [OHL] 307 99 146 245 315
2016 Entry 56 2 Dillon Dube C Kelowna Rockets [WHL] 81 9 17 26 16

2015 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2015 Entry 53 2 Rasmus Andersson D Barrie Colts [OHL] 174 9 39 48 92
2015 Entry 60 2 Oliver Kylington D Farjestads BK Karlstad [SweHL] 87 5 10 15 26
2015 Entry 166 6 Andrew Mangiapane L Barrie Colts [OHL] 136 29 23 52 40

2014 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2014 Entry 4 1 Sam Bennett C Kingston Frontenacs [OHL] 377 65 66 131 304

2013 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2013 Entry 6 1 Sean Monahan C Ottawa 67's [OHL] 555 196 226 422 125

2012 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2012 Entry 21 1 Mark Jankowski C Stanstead College (Quebec) 221 37 30 67 59

2011 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2011 Entry 13 1 Sven Baertschi L Portland Winterhawks [WHL] 291 66 72 138 78
2011 Entry 104 4 Johnny Gaudreau L Dubuque Fighting Saints [USHL] 478 159 301 460 100

2010 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2010 Entry 64 3 Max Reinhart C Kootenay Ice [WHL] 23 1 4 5 6
2010 Entry 133 5 Micheal Ferland L Brandon Wheat Kings [WHL] 335 60 74 134 200

2009 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2009 Entry 23 1 Tim Erixon D Skelleftea AIK [SEL] 93 2 12 14 38

2008 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2008 Entry 25 1 Greg Nemisz C Windsor Spitfires [OHL] 15 0 1 1 0
2008 Entry 78 3 Lance Bouma L Vancouver Giants [WHL] 357 30 46 76 210
2008 Entry 114 4 T.J. Brodie D Saginaw Spirit [OHL] 649 48 222 270 194

2007 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2007 Entry 24 1 Mikael Backlund C Vasteras IK [Swe-1] 704 148 225 373 343

2006 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2006 Entry 26 1 Leland Irving G Everett Silvertips [WHL] 13 0 1 1 0

2005 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2005 Entry 26 1 Matt Pelech R Sarnia Sting [OHL] 13 1 3 4 38

2004 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2004 Entry 24 1 Kris Chucko R Salmon Arm Silverbacks [BCHL] 2 0 0 0 2
2004 Entry 70 3 Brandon Prust L London Knights [OHL] 486 40 75 115 1036
2004 Entry 173 6 Adam Pardy D Cape Breton Screaming Eagles [QMJHL] 342 4 48 52 269

2003 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2003 Entry 9 1 Dion Phaneuf D Red Deer Rebels [WHL] 1048 137 357 494 1345

How come you’re not calling Adam Pardy from Bonavista Newfoundland a star player?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah, that's the dumb luck part. All three of those elite C's were picked #1 overall while the Flames were rebuilding. 2013, 2015 and 2016.

In 2014 the oilers grab Draisaitl instead of Bennett. Flames get Bennett with the next pick. Dumb luck.

All 4 of those years the Flames are rebuilding, and all 4 of those years an elite 1C gets taken in the top 3 but the Flames come up empty on that front. We end up with a good (but not elite) 1C in Monahan, a depth winger at best in Bennett, and a top line winger in Tkachuk. The 2015 pick is a mid round pick because the Flames have a ridiculous amount of come backs and manage to make the playoffs, so they trade it for Hamilton, turns out they could have had Barzal, but whatever, it's hard to fault that chain when it ends with a Lindholm and Hanifin being Flames.

And then yeah, as you mentioned. they miss the boat on Point. Lots of teams passed him I get it. But the Flames ALWAYS pass on guys like that, that's why we never have them and watch teams like Tampa contend every year and win a Cup with guys like that.

Combination of dumb luck and incompetence.

Outside chance Dube or Mangiapane take another huge leap, I suppose. For Treliving was trying to address C when he traded for Lindholm, a guy he thought was underrated and “about to pop”.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

And then yeah, as you mentioned. they miss the boat on Point. Lots of teams passed him I get it. But the Flames ALWAYS pass on guys like that, that's why we never have them and watch teams like Tampa contend every year and win a Cup with guys like that.

Actually that's what makes Point hurt the most (well this and him being a local kid that was right in our back yard) .

The Flames actually take the guy that looks like that a lot under Treliving.

Dube, Mangiapane, Kylington, Fox, Phillips, Pettersen, Zavorodiy, Pelletier, etc. Treliving has not shied away from taking smaller guys with high skill in the draft at all.

If Point was the 2015 draft instead and you had Treliving as the full time GM who was prioritizing skill at the draft and I'd almost guarantee we take Point with one of those two second rounders we had if he is still on the board.

Instead though it was the 2014 draft, and Burke was for the most part running the scouting process and draft criteria for that draft since Treliving had been in the role for about a month at that point. Just had to be the year where we prioritized size, and truculence.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Going back to 2003, I count:
4 Star Players
7 Impact Players
9 First Round-Busts

Spoiler!

NHL Totals Only

2020 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2020 Entry 24 1 Connor Zary C Kamloops Blazers [WHL]

2019 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2019 Entry 26 1 Jakob Pelletier L Moncton Wildcats [QMJHL]

2018 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2018 Entry 105 4 Martin Pospisil C Sioux City Musketeers [USHL]

2017 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2017 Entry 16 1 Juuso Valimaki D Tri-City Americans [WHL] 38 1 7 8 18

2016 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2016 Entry 6 1 Matthew Tkachuk L London Knights [OHL] 307 99 146 245 315
2016 Entry 56 2 Dillon Dube C Kelowna Rockets [WHL] 81 9 17 26 16

2015 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2015 Entry 53 2 Rasmus Andersson D Barrie Colts [OHL] 174 9 39 48 92
2015 Entry 60 2 Oliver Kylington D Farjestads BK Karlstad [SweHL] 87 5 10 15 26
2015 Entry 166 6 Andrew Mangiapane L Barrie Colts [OHL] 136 29 23 52 40

2014 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2014 Entry 4 1 Sam Bennett C Kingston Frontenacs [OHL] 377 65 66 131 304

2013 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2013 Entry 6 1 Sean Monahan C Ottawa 67's [OHL] 555 196 226 422 125

2012 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2012 Entry 21 1 Mark Jankowski C Stanstead College (Quebec) 221 37 30 67 59

2011 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2011 Entry 13 1 Sven Baertschi L Portland Winterhawks [WHL] 291 66 72 138 78
2011 Entry 104 4 Johnny Gaudreau L Dubuque Fighting Saints [USHL] 478 159 301 460 100

2010 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2010 Entry 64 3 Max Reinhart C Kootenay Ice [WHL] 23 1 4 5 6
2010 Entry 133 5 Micheal Ferland L Brandon Wheat Kings [WHL] 335 60 74 134 200

2009 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2009 Entry 23 1 Tim Erixon D Skelleftea AIK [SEL] 93 2 12 14 38

2008 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2008 Entry 25 1 Greg Nemisz C Windsor Spitfires [OHL] 15 0 1 1 0
2008 Entry 78 3 Lance Bouma L Vancouver Giants [WHL] 357 30 46 76 210
2008 Entry 114 4 T.J. Brodie D Saginaw Spirit [OHL] 649 48 222 270 194

2007 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2007 Entry 24 1 Mikael Backlund C Vasteras IK [Swe-1] 704 148 225 373 343

2006 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2006 Entry 26 1 Leland Irving G Everett Silvertips [WHL] 13 0 1 1 0

2005 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2005 Entry 26 1 Matt Pelech R Sarnia Sting [OHL] 13 1 3 4 38

2004 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2004 Entry 24 1 Kris Chucko R Salmon Arm Silverbacks [BCHL] 2 0 0 0 2
2004 Entry 70 3 Brandon Prust L London Knights [OHL] 486 40 75 115 1036
2004 Entry 173 6 Adam Pardy D Cape Breton Screaming Eagles [QMJHL] 342 4 48 52 269

2003 Entry
Draft Num. Round Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
2003 Entry 9 1 Dion Phaneuf D Red Deer Rebels [WHL] 1048 137 357 494 1345

Nice concept and analysis

However there is significant recent short term results and hope built in to your grades.

Both Jankowski and Baertschi were pretty solid as 22 year olds... maybe better than Dube (22) and Mangiapane (24) are right now.

When Jankowski was 22 there was some hope that he would have a significantly higher top end.

In Baertschi's 22 year old season he had NHL totals of 25 goals and 58 pts... Right now 24 year old Mangiapane sits at 29 goals 52 pts.


Baertschi brought in a 2nd. I Don't figure that Mangiapane brings a 1st at this time

Both Dube and Mangiapane look to be possible impact players as does Valimaki but not quite there yet.

Tkachuk and Mangiapane would not be enough to get Dubois over Laine and Rosolvic.


PS. Backlund has been a star player. Top-2 C for 5 years and a 32.1 M contract over 6 years as a 29 year old says the Flames management thought him to be a star as well thinking 7-7-7-5-4-2

[Jiri Hrdina]

You can't count Reinhart as a first round bust. He was a third rounder.
And almost all of those busts are in the previous regime. I don't know what that period of time is relevant too.
But then again I've also lost track of what is actually being discussed.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

No lottery team picking in the top 8 will have any interest in giving up its first round pick for Gio or Backlund.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The picks we get for gio and backlund will be late first...our first would be the top 8 pick assuming we miss the playoffs by a fair margin trading backlund and gio.

Or do you think we would still make it without those 2 when we tradex them for picks only?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

The picks we get for gio and backlund will be late first...our first would be the top 8 pick assuming we miss the playoffs by a fair margin trading backlund and gio.

Or do you think we would still make it without those 2 when we tradex them for picks only?

Firstly, there is zero chance the Flames are going to tank when they are so close to a playoff spot in an exceptionally weak division.

A new secondly, for that same reason regarding the division, it’s unlikely the Flames would drop done that far.

Your theory seems to be that the Flames can pick up a #1 centre by simply trading those two players for picks. This draft is pretty weak in forwards in general and centre’s in particular. And that’s even assuming they can win the lottery against poor odds.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Don’t twist my comment into “Monahan can’t carry a line”. Frankly, he’s never really been tested on that. He distributes the puck well and has a high hockey IQ, which in the past, has led him to pass to Gaudreau because more often than not it is the correct decision at the time.

Sure, Gaudreau is the shifty guy and Monahan is the scorer. But it doesn’t Backlund’s better. They are just different. Monahan is Phil Esposito and Gaudreau is Ken Hodge.

"Monahan can't carry a line" is my comment, I didn't twist anything you said.

But you did say Monahan with Lucic and Bennett is horrible.
Which would be exactly Monahan being tested on carrying a line. So why are you so against trying that if you think he could do it and has the attributes you've mentioned?

[Snuffleupagus]

I get it he was considered small but I still don't get how Brayden Point fell so far that year, only 2 CHL centers had more points in that draft class and he lead his team in scoring by 36 points at 17 years old, doubtful it was because he was on a bad team as both Treliving and head scout Button have stated they look for such players as a steal.

Scouting reports that year had him late first round to early second round, how we took a goalie, and big slow enforcer with stone hands and a AJHL Dman off to college over a highly skilled homegrown right shot center remains a mystery and a massive mistake.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You can't count Reinhart as a first round bust. He was a third rounder.
And almost all of those busts are in the previous regime. I don't know what that period of time is relevant too.
But then again I've also lost track of what is actually being discussed.

I just saw a comment that our drafting has been pretty mediocre, so I threw that together to at least add some data to that discussion. I went back to Phaneuf, because I’m pretty sure that was Darryl Sutter’s first pick, which was pretty much the end of the Young Guns era.

I guess I should have said “our first round” as in, the first player we drafted each year. I mean a third rounder is still a third rounder, but the fact we didn’t have a 1st or 2nd that year is (I think) also part of discussing our draft history.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

"Monahan can't carry a line" is my comment, I didn't twist anything you said.

But you did say Monahan with Lucic and Bennett is horrible.
Which would be exactly Monahan being tested on carrying a line. So why are you so against trying that if you think he could do it and has the attributes you've mentioned?

Because Monahan is a top 6 player and those two are bottom 6 players.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You are forgetting Fox, who’s an impact player and led in part to Lindholm/Hanifin. And you are being generous in ignoring 2013’s other first rounders Poirier and Klimchuk.

I thought about using a different colour for integral trade pieces, but instead just opted for simplicity. I just considered each player’s time playing for the Flames in the NHL. If someone was an impact or star player for another team, but not us, then that also speaks to the discussion around our drafting, as there are two sides to evaluating draft picks as an organization… pre draft and post draft.

Edit: Fair point about Poirier and Klimchuk, but as mentioned above, I just focused on listing the first player we selected each year (and then included any impact players beyond that). I just wanted to see the player we chose first each year, since that’s literally the player we valued the most at that particular moment in each draft.

[BagoPucks]

I think the flames dont need a top line star centre if the rest of the team can cover for not having that top star centre. I think I am more interested in finding out if I am alone in thinking that the flames cant develop players at the NHL level. I might be but I just always see players come in and either get worse or stagnate. Guys like Gio come to mind but how much of that was Gio and how much was the organisation supporting that growth. Perhaps this is not the thread for it.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by BagoPucks

I think the flames dont need a top line star centre if the rest of the team can cover for not having that top star centre. I think I am more interested in finding out if I am alone in thinking that the flames cant develop players at the NHL level. I might be but I just always see players come in and either get worse or stagnate. Guys like Gio come to mind but how much of that was Gio and how much was the organisation supporting that growth. Perhaps this is not the thread for it.

His year in Moscow didn't hurt.

[Northendzone]

Every team has the pieces to get a star center. Problem is getting your hands on the star c.

Besides, given this team mentally issues, why would you want to bring two or three guys into your room who have tendency to play small when you need them to play big?

[Monahammer]

Disagree. Throw anything that isn't currently playing at Nashville and see if it gets your forsberg.