These threads are hopeless, it's like listening to a bunch of lunatics trying to figure out what's wrong with them. It's obvious from the outside just how much is wrong, but you can't see it yourself because you're all ultimately part of the same culture.
In any case, here's one article listing some countries where ”shoot to kill" is not a policy.
It's not 100% accurate, nor is it that much, but honestly, I don't think there is any amount of reason or facts that would make any difference.
This was what I was wondering reading that post. Who is instructed to shoot to kill? And who has defended this phrase? There was a disagreement between ability to hit limbs vs. Torso, and also some discussion on why shots to the leg aren’t exactly safe. But I haven’t seen anyone arguing police should be “shooting to kill” when they use a fire arm.
These threads are hopeless, it's like listening to a bunch of lunatics trying to figure out what's wrong with them. It's obvious from the outside just how much is wrong, but you can't see it yourself because you're all ultimately part of the same culture.
Well, it's certainly one possibility that this thread is exclusively the domain of lunatics who can't appreciate the obvious truth when it's presented to them, and that you're the only sane one out of all of us.
Another possibility is that the arguments you've presented haven't been sufficient to persuade people that you're right. It's not like people don't believe that these policies exist in other countries, in varying forms. It's that people seem to think those policies are a bad idea, or that the fact that they exist doesn't actually demonstrate that it's easy - or effective - to shoot an attacker in the leg to disable him.
I'm just not sure why you're so strident about this. It's like you have a personal stake or some close connection to the issue. If there's some specialized expertise you have on this, why not share it? Zulu's and WhiteTiger's perspectives have I think been valuable for that very reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanLucPicard
Public's job is to be aggressive and loud, to force the government to make the rational decisions.
Good lord. I think this is a terrible prescription. You're acting like the public should behave as an angry mob. Not only does that never end well regardless of the context, but it certainly doesn't produce measured, thoughtful policy decisions on the part of government, who are trying to appease the mob. All in all I'd say this is a really bad take.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Here's a video that shows how quickly these knife calls can escalate. Police gave this guy all the time in the world and he chose to attack. And then he gets up after being shot and attacks again.
For those that think a leg shot, or even just one single bullet should be enough, watch this video. Stress and adrenaline and you expect a leg shot? Body shots don't even kill people quickly before an attack can be avoided.
And someone here actually said they would prefer that cop getting killed when attacked, 1000 times over, to the assailant being killed.
Jesus Christ.
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No, no…I’m not sloppy, or lazy. This is a sign of the boredom.
And someone here actually said they would prefer that cop getting killed when attacked, 1000 times over, to the assailant being killed.
Jesus Christ.
Uhhhhh no. That was specifically for wrongful killing. It was clearly written that way. A deliberately jarring thought experiment. Do you just constantly try to twist things or do you have any interest in hearing other opinions?
Here's a video that shows how quickly these knife calls can escalate. Police gave this guy all the time in the world and he chose to attack. And then he gets up after being shot and attacks again.
For those that think a leg shot, or even just one single bullet should be enough, watch this video. Stress and adrenaline and you expect a leg shot? Body shots don't even kill people quickly before an attack can be avoided.
Tell him not to worry, a foster parent once told me that knives aren't dangerous.
And someone here actually said they would prefer that cop getting killed when attacked, 1000 times over, to the assailant being killed.
Jesus Christ.
Yeah... no.
First, that was Cecil. Second, I was the one who said he should be punched in the face for it (which in retrospect was a bit overboard; what I really meant was that if I was someone whose brother or sister or spouse was a cop and he said that in my presence I'd probably have decked him) so you know I was about as opposed to that post as anyone. And even I don't think this is a fair characterization of what he said. He said he'd rather see 1000 cops dead than one person killed through the use of unnecessary force. Cecil can correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt anyone, including him, would say that it was unnecessary to shoot the guy in that video.
If the officers in that video made a mistake, it was not shooting him sooner when he was getting back up after the initial shot and allowing him to make contact with the officer whose perspective we're seeing the event from, giving him potential access to that officer's firearm.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Uhhhhh no. That was specifically for wrongful killing. It was clearly written that way. A deliberately jarring thought experiment. Do you just constantly try to twist things or do you have any interest in hearing other opinions?
Sorry to Cecil, I misremembered his post and combined someone's knifes aren't a serious danger-type view and his. Clearly this is not the type of case he was referring to.
Secondly, what the #### are you on about? One post and suddenly I'm an ignorant word-twister? Or are you just upset with me because I didn't share you Covid views?
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No, no…I’m not sloppy, or lazy. This is a sign of the boredom.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Itse is trying be "right" in this argument, but merely showing that there are alternative approaches to policing out there that work and that the citizens respect and appreciate those approaches. If anything, this thread proves that if the powers that be decide this is a worthy endeavor to embark on (a top to bottom re-think on policing), not only are they going to face push back from those directly affected (police officers, unions, chiefs, etc.) but also from the general public.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Itse is trying be "right" in this argument, but merely showing that there are alternative approaches to policing out there that work and that the citizens respect and appreciate those approaches. If anything, this thread proves that if the powers that be decide this is a worthy endeavor to embark on (a top to bottom re-think on policing), not only are they going to face push back from those directly affected (police officers, unions, chiefs, etc.) but also from the general public.
Originally Posted by Itse View Post
These threads are hopeless, it's like listening to a bunch of lunatics trying to figure out what's wrong with them. It's obvious from the outside just how much is wrong, but you can't see it yourself because you're all ultimately part of the same culture.
I dunno, pretty clear he’s saying we’re wrong on our views as compared to his. Reading between the lines here but I’m pretty sure he is trying to portray his views as the right ones.
Good lord. I think this is a terrible prescription. You're acting like the public should behave as an angry mob. Not only does that never end well regardless of the context, but it certainly doesn't produce measured, thoughtful policy decisions on the part of government, who are trying to appease the mob. All in all I'd say this is a really bad take.
Being aggressive and loud is not always equivalent to a mob mentality. Its clear that I meant raising awareness to get others on board in a legal manner. Appeasement as a result of a collective voice of the people, for example a protest or people demanding answers from their elected officials through calls, doesn't mean a bad result at all. My stance will always be assertive towards the government. Every little mistake should be noticed and we should be bothering the government about it to give a proper solution.
Here's a video that shows how quickly these knife calls can escalate. Police gave this guy all the time in the world and he chose to attack. And then he gets up after being shot and attacks again.
For those that think a leg shot, or even just one single bullet should be enough, watch this video. Stress and adrenaline and you expect a leg shot? Body shots don't even kill people quickly before an attack can be avoided.
I didn't watch the whole thing, but seemed like that cop handled it right.
No one is saying don't ever shoot a guy centre mass. Just consider it as an option.
Originally Posted by Itse View Post
These threads are hopeless, it's like listening to a bunch of lunatics trying to figure out what's wrong with them. It's obvious from the outside just how much is wrong, but you can't see it yourself because you're all ultimately part of the same culture.
I dunno, pretty clear he’s saying we’re wrong on our views as compared to his. Reading between the lines here but I’m pretty sure he is trying to portray his views as the right ones.
My take is - our police kill way more people than they do in Europe. Can we learn anything from them to reduce our killing?
To be honest - the shooting in the leg thing is low on the list. Once you get to the shooting part things have likely already gotten out of hand and chances of a positive outcome are low.
And someone here actually said they would prefer that cop getting killed when attacked, 1000 times over, to the assailant being killed.
Jesus Christ.
There are 2 videos of this shooting, the sad thing is while I wouldnt fault the police at all in the shooting, the guy clearly was doing everything he could to get them to shoot him, including screaming 'kill me, kill me' at them as he lunged at the officer, at one stage he does overpower the officer and tries to grab the cops gun and they then shot him but I have no doubt in my mind the guy didnt actually want to hurt them, he had a knife to the cops throat and did nothing at one point, he wanted them to kill him.
Its sad and criminal that we cant find a less lethal solution to a suicidal person
There is a less lethal solution. It's called a taser. Unfortunately they aren't 100% effective.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Here's a video that shows how quickly these knife calls can escalate. Police gave this guy all the time in the world and he chose to attack. And then he gets up after being shot and attacks again.
In the last thread we discussed this, I was told that this video and others like it are invalidated by the fact that no cop has been fatally stabbed in North America in decades, possibly "ever".
Therefore, lethal force on knife calls is never justified.
In the last thread we discussed this, I was told that this video and others like it are invalidated by the fact that no cop has been fatally stabbed in North America in decades, possibly "ever".
Therefore, lethal force on knife calls is never justified.
I think I got that right.
Well, AFC is right in that few police officers are killed by knives in NA. However, this may be due to the fact that those individuals are bringing a knife to a gun fight and the odds are against them. I don’t know how AFC can look at the above video where the guy is trying to stab the cop with a knife and say that he’s certain he didn’t want to kill him. And there was an Ottawa cop killed 8 years ago or so by a knife.
There is a less lethal solution. It's called a taser. Unfortunately they aren't 100% effective.
It would seem prudent to give cops stab proof clothing so that they arent at risk even if the taser doesnt work, its a pretty cheap basic bit of kit, I would think they should have a shield as well, although maybe the car's trunk is full and that isnt reasonable except as a specialist bit of kit.
It is possible to make a cop almost impervious to a knife wound in a normal attack, granted I doubt the police would want to wear the kit all the time but it aught to be in the car for when its needed
Well, AFC is right in that few police officers are killed by knives in NA. However, this may be due to the fact that those individuals are bringing a knife to a gun fight and the odds are against them. I don’t know how AFC can look at the above video where the guy is trying to stab the cop with a knife and say that he’s certain he didn’t want to kill him. And there was an Ottawa cop killed 8 years ago or so by a knife.
my point was/is that very few cops are killed by knives in the UK or Europe either, its just not a very good weapon to kill cops with (thankfully), I am not saying the risk is zero but it is so low, and could be made much lower still at which point is there really a justification for shooting someone?
As to the video, there is the film from the other cops camera which shows the guy with the knife screaming 'kill me kill me' while running at the officer that went down, he had the knife to his throat and yet didnt stab him, he then decided to grab the cops gun, at which point they shot him.
It looked pretty clear the guy wanted to get shoot more than anything else
