I think we all know neither player is very good and are over paid. We knew that soon after Neal was signed, we knew that the day they were traded for each other, we knew that when play was suspended and we know that now.
Are those the options? If Lucic is worse that makes Neal great? No, so why go straight to hyperbole? We took a bad situation and made it worse.
Are those the options? If Lucic is worse that makes Neal great? No, so why go straight to hyperbole? We took a bad situation and made it worse.
I'm the one with hyperbole?
Here is what you said ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nik-
Still awful. People can grasp to minor details to justify that Lucic was "playing better", but he's bad and the contract is atrocious.
grasp ... justify
While pointing out the obvious that Lucic isn't worth the money he's making, but no mention of a bad player going the other way who's getting paid more given the Oiler retention.
My non hyperbolic answer was that it's two bad players making too much traded for each other.
People don't have to grasp or justify to see Lucic as a better fit than Neal was. If Neal wasn't signed this deal obviously can't happen. It did, and it appears this trade made things better to many.
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The contracts are both ridiculous, I think we all get that. I was slightly pleasantly surprised by Lucic and have actually grown to like him a little. He really blew some opportunities to win myself, and I have to imagine a good lot of Flames fans, over by disappearing in those Oiler games. For all the toughness and such that he brings/brought, to disappear and wilt like that against our main division rival was nearly inexcusable.
While pointing out the obvious that Lucic isn't worth the money he's making, but no mention of a bad player going the other way who's getting paid more given the Oiler retention.
My non hyperbolic answer was that it's two bad players making too much traded for each other.
People don't have to grasp or justify to see Lucic as a better fit than Neal was. If Neal wasn't signed this deal obviously can't happen. It did, and it appears this trade made things better to many.
He's not just not worth the money, he's nowhere near worth the money. Getting the worse end of a deal doesn't mean you think the other side is getting someone great on a bargain. So I'm not sure why you needed to insert that assumption. It wasn't even hinted at at all in the post you quoted.
He's not just not worth the money, he's nowhere near worth the money. Getting the worse end of a deal doesn't mean you think the other side is getting someone great on a bargain. So I'm not sure why you needed to insert that assumption. It wasn't even hinted at at all in the post you quoted.
The topic is literally what do you feel about the swap?
How do you just point out one player in a garbage for garbage trade isn't worth the money and then suggest it's not needed to discuss the other player when the whole topic was your feeling of a trade of one player for another?
It's literally the whole point.
Are you saying they should have just kept Neal then?
Still don't care that much. We saved a bit of money IIRC so that's nice. Every penny counts. Lucic is not completely useless.
Since we have now gotten strong confirmation that Neal was seriously disliked in the locker room, yeah okay fine whatever.
(I'm also perfectly fine with the Oilers thinking Neal actually moved the needle. IMO it was smoke, mirrors and coincidence. What moved the needle for them was Draisaitls fantastic year, and coaching. Neal still just sucks.)
I think the situation with Neal was unfortunate -whether he was in the dog house or not. I think we all assumed he was turning out to be another Brouwer. Glad he turned out better with the Oilers. At the same time, I think Lucic was necessary to be with the Flames as the team needed to be bigger and more gritty. You can tell that Lucic's size made some differences as the season wore on. I wished we could've afforded Lucic at the height of his career.
For me, the answer is hands down Neal and his contract. I wouldn't want either player, and a compliance buyout is not guaranteed to be available or used. Therefore, at this point, I'd still rather have the contract that can be bought out.
My take at the time of the trade was that on the ice it was a good trade for both teams, but factoring in that Lucic's contract has negative value associated with a buyout where Neal's doesn't, I hoped the Flames would have been able to extract an unconditional second-round pick or equivalent later picks. I suspected there would be a gentleman's agreement regarding the expansion draft but obviously that will remain unconfirmed.
I expected that Neal would flourish on the Oilers' powerplay but be a complete liability in all other aspects of the game, leading him to significantly outscore Lucic but have a net impact that was similar. Neal scoring over 50% of his points on the powerplay, though, is absurd and speaks to just how god-awful he has become. Neal was even worse than I expected (for the second straight season).
For Lucic, I expected him to continue his excellent and wildly underrated defensive play, have trouble driving offence, but come out as a net even or around there. The kicker with Lucic was his complete lack of discipline, frequently putting his team on the penalty kill with bone-headed penalties. I suspected there was a decent chance that playing on better-coached team with a far superior culture could lead to those problems completely disappearing and, if so, the trade would swing in the Flames' favour.
To my delight, Lucic was able to parlay his sneaky-good hockey sense into disciplined play and came out even in non-fighting/teammate protecting penalty differential. Lucic deserves so much credit for playing a smart brand of hockey and leading by example (please, Bennett, follow suit!). Aggression is great if it's channeled appropriately.
In Lucic's last season with the Oilers, he took 16 non-defending penalties while only drawing 6 for a differential of -10 - and it was even worse in previous years. Tough to swallow for bottom-roster players. With the Flames, Lucic took just 5 non-defending penalties while drawing 5, breaking even. A fabulous turnaround.
As trades should be judged based on what was known at the time, I maintain the Flames got slightly less than they should have, but also that Lucic had a much higher probability of improving his play than Neal did. After the first season of each, the trade is a clear win for the Flames assuming Lucic maintains his aggressive but disciplined play for the remaining term. Lucic is still a serviceable third/fourth liner and isn't showing signs of rapidly slowing down, plus bring the unmatched physical intimidation and apparent off-ice intangibles. At this point Neal is below replacement level in all aspects of the game aside from his shot and can't be deployed in any situation other than the powerplay.
Obviously any expansion draft issue would immediately be a disaster for the Flames, but all indications are not to be surprised when Lucic waives.
From the trade thread:
Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by united
If Lucic can reign in his temper while still holding opponents accountable, I think Neal will have the better counting numbers but the Flames will be better off overall. Neal brought nothing to the table here, while Lucic can if he puts his mind to it and controls himself a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by united
If Lucic changes and plays a disciplined game aside from sticking up for teammates or message sending I like this trade for the Flames.
My optimism is rooted in the fact the Oilers have been a complete gongshow where the inmates run the asylum. With a non-bush league coaching staff and some actual leadership I think he can turn it around - or I'm delusional
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I still would have preferred a Neal buyout to the trade.
That was never going to happen as the owners were never going to eat four years of that contract. Best thing would have been to give Neal a 2nd year as they did with Brouwer and then every season after evaluate buying him out. That was probably not going to happen either as the GM's hand picked coach didn't like the player the GM liked enough to sign for 5 seasons so the GM doubled down on his coach. The coach he had to fire two months into the next season. This entire Neal, Peters, Lucic thing has been a disaster for the organization. Treliving better not screw up the next coach hire because the mistakes are piling up at an alarming rate.
