[Rumour] Dreger: Whispers of the Flames trying to extend Hamonic

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Despite having only one selection in the first three rounds in 2017–18, the Flames have also graduated six of their own drafted players in the same two years; their top-four scoring forwards range in age from 21–25-years-old, and there will be at least three defensemen on the starting roster next year under 23-years-old. Relatively speaking, the paucity of high picks in the recent past does not seem especially terrible.

See, you think it's impressive to graduate prospects onto the main roster.

Good organizations view that as business as usual.

Barbashev just played 25 games for the Blues on his way to winning a cup. Vince Dunn played 20. Robert Thomas just won a cup as a rookie.

Charlie McAvoy, Brandon Carlo and Jake Debrusk are all under 23 as well.

Outside of Tkachuk I wouldn't take a single flames prospect graduated over that timeframe over any of the 3 from Boston listed above. Brandon Carlo has 230 games of NHL experience. Andersson, Kylington and Mangiapane (all from the same draft) have combined for 184.

Somehow good teams manage to compete and draft at the same time.

Somehow the Flames have managed not to compete and not draft at the same time.

I'll let you figure out if that's related or not.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

See, you think it's impressive to graduate prospects onto the main roster.

Good organizations view that as business as usual.

Barbashev just played 25 games for the Blues on his way to winning a cup. Vince Dunn played 20. Robert Thomas just won a cup as a rookie.

Charlie McAvoy, Brandon Carlo and Jake Debrusk are all under 23 as well.

Outside of Tkachuk I wouldn't take a single flames prospect graduated over that timeframe over any of the 3 from Boston listed above. Brandon Carlo has 230 games of NHL experience. Andersson, Kylington and Mangiapane (all from the same draft) have combined for 184.

Somehow good teams manage to compete and draft at the same time.

Somehow the Flames have managed not to compete and not draft at the same time.

I'll let you figure out if that's related or not.

The Bruins also have been amazing at drafting outside the first round and even better at getting elite level players locked up on steal contracts. You don't think Marchand and Bergeron at 12.9 total for 3 plus more years isn't the single biggest reason why the Bruins are a threat moving forward? Add chara and his 7 or less cap hit and pastranak at 6.6 and I'm seeing a team here to stay despite age because of cap management. They can win despite bad contracts because they have 4 stars at a cap that no other team can say they have

Brad has the flames in a similar spot for 3 years too.

Imo brodie and frolik can be moved no problem and tkachuk can be signed for reasonable amount because that's Brad's strength

I'm hoping hamonic got wind of trade rumours and spoke up he wants to stay. Cant pass up on keeping a good player if the contract is right. Hamonic was at one point a top prospect a first rounder and former captain of team Canada at the wjc. Good teams draft well but doesn't have to be in the first round always

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

See, you think it's impressive to graduate prospects onto the main roster.

Good organizations view that as business as usual.

Barbashev just played 25 games for the Blues on his way to winning a cup. Vince Dunn played 20. Robert Thomas just won a cup as a rookie.

Charlie McAvoy, Brandon Carlo and Jake Debrusk are all under 23 as well.

Outside of Tkachuk I wouldn't take a single flames prospect graduated over that timeframe over any of the 3 from Boston listed above. Brandon Carlo has 230 games of NHL experience. Andersson, Kylington and Mangiapane (all from the same draft) have combined for 184.

Somehow good teams manage to compete and draft at the same time.

Somehow the Flames have managed not to compete and not draft at the same time.

I'll let you figure out if that's related or not.

Goes back to a series of bad decisions and poor asset management that started in the 90s - and left this team in a deficit from an asset POV.
Then a period of wasting first round picks almost every year for an extended period of time.
Has left them with constantly robbing peter to pay paul.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

See, you think it's impressive to graduate prospects onto the main roster.

Good organizations view that as business as usual.

"Impressive" is your word, not mine. I guess we can agree, then, that despite not having the picks the past couple of years the Flames are still managing to get this part right.

...Somehow good teams manage to compete and draft at the same time...

The Bruins might be the best drafting team in the NHL. One of the other model franchises didn't win a single playoff game this year. Teams with tonnes of picks year after year somehow continue to flounder. The Stanley Cup champions moved a first-round pick and their 2016 first round selection in an important trade that vaulted them from a middling playoff team to winning it all.

Building a team is not nearly as simple and binary as your "draft=profit!!" model. It is both myopic and disingenuous to tie playoff fortunes to the two most recent entry drafts.

Somehow the Flames have managed not to compete and not draft at the same time.

They were the second best team in the entire League. That seems pretty competitive to me.

I'll let you figure out if that's related or not.

In the space of two years? No. It's not.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 868904

Hamonic is a guy you win a championship with, having said that, after his current contract, he will be past his prime. You can't handcuff yourself to a long term contract on "post apex" players.

I'd be willing to give him a 3 year term max and no more than $4 million AAV. Ideally, he takes the Michael Stone contract.

The only reason I even make this offer is because the Flames are a bit weak on the right side defence but that could change by seasons end depending on how Yelesin adjusts to North America.

So you offer him less money than he makes right now? His AAV is $3.85 but that's only because he made significantly less in the first 3 years. He makes $4.875 now.

[Flash Walken]

Yeah, probably just a coincidence that the best drafting teams also happen to be powerhouses and that the team that just won the cup still managed to draft in the 1st round in the last 2 years despite of moving out 2 first round picks over that same span.

Also probably just a coincidence that the flames didn't make a selection until round 4 last year and didn't have any assets to make a significant deadline acquisition this year.

Definitely unrelated.

Too funny.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Goes back to a series of bad decisions and poor asset management that started in the 90s - and left this team in a deficit from an asset POV.
Then a period of wasting first round picks almost every year for an extended period of time.
Has left them with constantly robbing peter to pay paul.

What do we think about the Flames' drafting? Are they actually good at it? I think they're okay.

Treliving has overseen five drafts now, and seven players he selected have played in the NHL.

Bennett: 312 GP 55G 61A 116 pts
Tkachuk: 224 GP 71G 103A 174 pts
Andersson: 90 GP 2G 17A 19 pts
Mangiapane: 54 GP 8G 5A 13 pts
Kylington: 39 GP 3G 5A 8 pts
Dube: 25 GP 1G 4A 5 pts
Valimaki: 24 GP 1G 2A 3 pts

They haven't had a 2nd or 3rd round pick since 2016, but before that they had two 2nd rounders in three straight drafts - Parsons/Dube, Andersson/Kylington, McDonald/Smith. Only twice have the Flames made a 3rd round selection since Brad was hired.

Stop trading picks. I like Treliving a lot, but he makes atrocious July 1 signings and he trades too many picks. They've only selected one player in the top 90 in the last two years. That's not okay. We are not so flush with NHL talent on the farm that we can afford to pass up that much talent.

[Toonage]

All of our GMs have behaved in a similar fashion. Maybe ownership has a role. Possibly pushing the GMs to make certain moves. Not for a specific player necessarily but just to try and cut to the front of the line so to speak. Trying to be more competitive sooner than they should be. I don't know.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

See, you think it's impressive to graduate prospects onto the main roster.

Good organizations view that as business as usual.

Barbashev just played 25 games for the Blues on his way to winning a cup. Vince Dunn played 20. Robert Thomas just won a cup as a rookie.

Charlie McAvoy, Brandon Carlo and Jake Debrusk are all under 23 as well.

Outside of Tkachuk I wouldn't take a single flames prospect graduated over that timeframe over any of the 3 from Boston listed above. Brandon Carlo has 230 games of NHL experience. Andersson, Kylington and Mangiapane (all from the same draft) have combined for 184.

Somehow good teams manage to compete and draft at the same time.

Somehow the Flames have managed not to compete and not draft at the same time.

I'll let you figure out if that's related or not.

I think the Flames are doing better than their historical average lately. In regards to 2015 draft with Carlo and Debrusk, the Flames did turn that pick into Hamilton which then turned into Hanifin and Lindholm with some added homegrown prospects.

Lets face it in the 2015 draft Boston had 6 picks in the first 52. That is a lot of bullets in the chamber and probably should have been a lot better.

I think you are starting to see some of the organisational growth starting to shine through, that is why a player like Brodie may be available. using a shorter window I think think skews things a bit. It will be interesting to revisit in a couple years. If Dube, Mangipane, Andersson, and Valimaki can make that next step then I think the team is headed the right direction.

If you look at it right now there are around 11 players that will be under 24 that have a decent chance of being on the roster next year and that doesn't include the 25 year old Gaudreau.

This team is still very young.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

What do we think about the Flames' drafting? Are they actually good at it? I think they're okay.

Treliving has overseen five drafts now, and seven players he selected have played in the NHL.

Bennett: 312 GP 55G 61A 116 pts
Tkachuk: 224 GP 71G 103A 174 pts
Andersson: 90 GP 2G 17A 19 pts
Mangiapane: 54 GP 8G 5A 13 pts
Kylington: 39 GP 3G 5A 8 pts
Dube: 25 GP 1G 4A 5 pts
Valimaki: 24 GP 1G 2A 3 pts

They haven't had a 2nd or 3rd round pick since 2016, but before that they had two 2nd rounders in three straight drafts - Parsons/Dube, Andersson/Kylington, McDonald/Smith. Only twice have the Flames made a 3rd round selection since Brad was hired.

Stop trading picks. I like Treliving a lot, but he makes atrocious July 1 signings and he trades too many picks. They've only selected one player in the top 90 in the last two years. That's not okay. We are not so flush with NHL talent on the farm that we can afford to pass up that much talent.

Depends what the trades are. The trade chain of picks for Hamilton to Hanifin and Lindolm should be considered a success. Ended up with quality players with term on decent contracts. Draft picks always seem to be their highest value before the pick is used.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Toonage

All of our GMs have behaved in a similar fashion. Maybe ownership has a role. Possibly pushing the GMs to make certain moves. Not for a specific player necessarily but just to try and cut to the front of the line so to speak. Trying to be more competitive sooner than they should be. I don't know.

This is 100% what it is.

Has been for years: https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showth...ands+ownership

[bax]

Drafting is hard. The same draft that Boston took Debrusk at 14 and Carlo at 37 they also took Zboril at 13 and Senyshyn at 15.

For having so many picks they missed out on players like Barzal, Connor, Chabot, Boeser, Konecny, Roslovic, Beauvillier, Dermott, and Aho. All of these players went between 15 and 37. It's not an exact science.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by bax

Drafting is hard. The same draft that Boston took Debrusk at 14 and Carlo at 37 they also took Zboril at 13 and Senyshyn at 15.

For having so many picks they missed out on players like Barzal, Connor, Chabot, Boeser, Konecny, Roslovic, Beauvillier, Dermott, and Aho. All of these players went between 15 and 37. It's not an exact science.

If the Bruins had picked any two of those players instead of who they took, they win the Stanley Cup last night.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Goes back to a series of bad decisions and poor asset management that started in the 90s - and left this team in a deficit from an asset POV.
Then a period of wasting first round picks almost every year for an extended period of time.
Has left them with constantly robbing peter to pay paul.

While I agree with this, I don't see it bearing any relevance to assessing Treliving's performance. Unless you are saying he is operating under a certain organizational mandate or philosophy (which is maybe exactly what you are saying).

Treliving took over a young team with a surplus of picks and no real awful contracts. He had a lot of flexibility.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If the Bruins had picked any two of those players instead of who they took, they win the Stanley Cup last night.

You just can't say that. You don't even know if they make the finals.

You are assuming the best team always wins.

There is too much randomness to guarantee anything.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

What do we think about the Flames' drafting? Are they actually good at it? I think they're okay.

Treliving has overseen five drafts now, and seven players he selected have played in the NHL.

Bennett: 312 GP 55G 61A 116 pts
Tkachuk: 224 GP 71G 103A 174 pts
Andersson: 90 GP 2G 17A 19 pts
Mangiapane: 54 GP 8G 5A 13 pts
Kylington: 39 GP 3G 5A 8 pts
Dube: 25 GP 1G 4A 5 pts
Valimaki: 24 GP 1G 2A 3 pts

They haven't had a 2nd or 3rd round pick since 2016, but before that they had two 2nd rounders in three straight drafts - Parsons/Dube, Andersson/Kylington, McDonald/Smith. Only twice have the Flames made a 3rd round selection since Brad was hired.

Stop trading picks. I like Treliving a lot, but he makes atrocious July 1 signings and he trades too many picks. They've only selected one player in the top 90 in the last two years. That's not okay. We are not so flush with NHL talent on the farm that we can afford to pass up that much talent.

I think there are two different issues here
Whether or not BT trades too many picks
How the organization under his tenure has drafted

You can probably do a draft efficiency calculation to see how good they have drafted relative to the picks they have had - in volume and position.

My sense is they are doing better now. The Smith/McDonald draft was not good. But I like the approach since including the focus on talent and upside in later rounds.

Some later round picks that either were used as chips (with some value) or have turned into players
- Hickey
- Eat Bread
- Fox

And then you have other late picks that I think have shown good progression. Now one could argue every org can argue they have those but I have sensed a real shift in terms of focusing on talent in the later rounds - which gets you guys like Philips, Tuulola, Ruzicka, Pettersen, Zavygorodniy instead of guys like Riley Bruce, Austin Carroll, etc.

I'm a fan of taking flawed talented players in the third round and beyond
We will see how it nets out. But that's how you get a guy like Eat Bread.

[868904]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So you offer him less money than he makes right now? His AAV is $3.85 but that's only because he made significantly less in the first 3 years. He makes $4.875 now.

Yeah. It doesn't matter to me what he makes now. It's what's best for the team. His last contract was his "prime years". Anything moving forward is past prime and he should be paid as such. This is where teams get in trouble, over paying for veterans who are past their prime.

If he thinks he can get more, than he should go UFA.

[Flash Walken]

I think a real negative of the quality of their drafting is taking goalies with high picks, but other than that I agree with jiri above.

I don't know how it operates but I think perhaps changing out some scouts has had an improvement.

Drafting goalies with 2nd round picks is a mistake though in my opinion, and the flames have done it twice with Tre here.

IMO 2nd round draft pick philosophy should be simple: a defender who would otherwise be projected to go in round 1 but for some physical characteristic ends up falling to the 2nd round.

The league over, those are the money picks of the NHL.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by 868904

Yeah. It doesn't matter to me what he makes now. It's what's best for the team. His last contract was his "prime years". Anything moving forward is past prime and he should be paid as such. This is where teams get in trouble, over paying for veterans who are past their prime.

If he thinks he can get more, than he should go UFA.

28 is not "past prime years" for defensemen, its right in the wheelhouse of them.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This is 100% what it is.

Has been for years: https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showth...ands+ownership

That was a fun read. Especially Brent Sutter supposedly saying Weisbrod was only the only shining star in the organization.

To me there is a difference between Calgary not being an attractive destination (are we really missing out on the best players and coaches because of this?) vs. impatient or meddling ownership.

Both may be true. But if you want to believe Brian Burke, he says he had as much autonomy in Calgary as he did anywhere else IIRC.