Liberalism is closer to fascism than conservatism

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by New Era

Is it? Look at it point by point, and then think about those points in context. Itse said:



"Conservatives openly long for a patriarchal society, strong leaders, strong police forces controlled by the government, and a society where they don't have to put up with women, ethnic minorities, young people or queers acting out. They also consider socialism as a fundamentally delegitimate ideology. (For example, for a conservative saying "that's socialism" is in itself an adequate rebuttal for anything, not needing further explanation.)"



Conservatives are patriarchal in nature. This has been long agreed to and there is really no discussion here.



Conservatives like strong leaders. Again, no doubt. Can you name the last great conservative leader that wasn't "strong" and relied on the machinations of the state to support his authority?



Conservatives like strong police forces/military. There is a reason why both follow a strong chain-of-command model, which is very patriarchal in structure. There is also a reason why the service is filled with a lot of hard core conservatives - they are drawn to jobs which leverage the same ideals they themselves embrace. The professional police model, employed by most services around the world, is very authoritarian and follows the patriarchal ideals. The community oriented model, not so popular, follows a more matriarchal ideal, which does not work well in a top down form of governance.



The "put up with women" comment was a bit harsh, but somewhat accurate as well. In conservative countries and systems, women know their place and it is in service of their husband and family.



The ethnic minorities comment also needs some context to fully get it. Just look at countries with strong conservative leadership and the make up of their ruling party. Is it pretty homogeneous or heterogeneous? What are the behaviors of that leadership? Do they blame the problems of the society on foreigners or minorities? Look at the US, Britain, the Philippines, etc. Lots of examples of xenophobia at work. The ironic part is that minorities are traditionally conservative themselves, because of the patriarchal nature of their culture, yet conservative collectives tend to stay extremely homogeneous in make up.



Conservatives do have a strong belief that experience matters and that the youth just don't have that experience to be trusted. Children are to be seen and not heard. Would you not agree with that?



I don't think there is any argument on the "queer" issue. Conservatives are very much anti-gay.







I can't answer that because we don't have either. What we have is a very blended system that steals a little from each. In Canada the system borrows a little more form the socialist perspective and provides more for the common man. In the United States the same borrowings are made, but the equity is given to the rich and corporations. In the US we have socialism in action, but it is all focused on transferring wealth to the rich and the corporations. Personally I liked the Canadian system much better, as it offered much more mobility than the American system.

I appreciate your well thought out response, I am by no means saying conservative governments do not favour the “older white man” or that many conservative governments aren’t patriarchal. I’m very aware that many conservative parties throughout the world need reforming and that there are definitely certain beliefs some conservatives have regarding gay marriage that I don’t adhere to. My issue is that he was making a gross assumption to what conservatives believe, I very much disagree with his comment on women and minorities and it’s damn near offensive. I think the vast amount of young conservatives like myself believe women and minority groups are just as equal in society as the “white majority” and they should be better incorporated into future conservative governments. To be against that notion would make you part of the far-right and not part of the conservative movement. There’s many rationale conservative speakers who illustrate conservative views much better than I can, but none encourage the marginalizing and subjugation of minorities and women. Unless you think David Duke is a conservative


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[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

That's a false choice and a simplistic way to look at it, presuming you're referring specifically to economic systems. All 'first world' countries are capitalist with socialist programs. The difference between these countries is where they find themselves on the spectrum of amount of government control.



There is no pure capitalist society on the planet. Somalia, circa 2006, would probably come closest. Conversely, there is no purely socialist country either but I would guess Cuba or Venezuela would be close. So, if you're asking me if I'd rather live in Somalia or Cuba I guess I'd pick Cuba.

Yes the comment was more in jest, I understand that our system is far more complex than it being that cut and dry


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[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I appreciate your well thought out response, I am by no means saying conservative governments do not favour the “older white man” or that many conservative governments aren’t patriarchal. I’m very aware that many conservative parties throughout the world need reforming and that there are definitely certain beliefs some conservatives have regarding gay marriage that I don’t adhere to. My issue is that he was making a gross assumption to what conservatives believe, I very much disagree with his comment on women and minorities and it’s damn near offensive. I think the vast amount of young conservatives like myself believe women and minority groups are just as equal in society as the “white majority” and they should be better incorporated into future conservative governments. To be against that notion would make you part of the far-right and not part of the conservative movement. There’s many rationale conservative speakers who illustrate conservative views much better than I can, but none encourage the marginalizing and subjugation of minorities and women. Unless you think David Duke is a conservative

Remove the "white" component from your argument. White people are not the only conservative people in the world. Most cultures that have a strong religious component to their cultural identity are very conservative. This could be almost any Muslim country around the globe. Many Christian sects are very conservative as well. Catholicism is very conservative, so you don't have to look too far in many parts of the world to see this (Latin countries for example). You can also look at countries that have a strong orthodox Christian perspective as well (Greece, Russia, the ex-Soviet satellites, etc). This isn't a color of shin issue, it is a cultural and ideological issue.

And yes, David Duke is a hardcore conservative.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by New Era

Remove the "white" component from your argument. White people are not the only conservative people in the world. Most cultures that have a strong religious component to their cultural identity are very conservative. This could be almost any Muslim country around the globe. Many Christian sects are very conservative as well. Catholicism is very conservative, so you don't have to look too far in many parts of the world to see this (Latin countries for example). You can also look at countries that have a strong orthodox Christian perspective as well (Greece, Russia, the ex-Soviet satellites, etc). This isn't a color of shin issue, it is a cultural and ideological issue.



And yes, David Duke is a hardcore conservative.

I’m sorry but David Duke is not a conservative, he’s Right-Wing hardcore racist and white-supremacist and a member of the KKK. There’s a massive difference. Some people in this thread clearly do not realize that and that’s kind of scary.

When I was saying “white” I was referring to Canada, but yes many of those countries are conservative due to a variety of reasons which proves my previous point that conservatives are not just white like the previous poster was claiming. You seem to view conservatives in one big group as well. Poor way of looking at political ideologies


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[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I’m sorry but David Duke is not a conservative, he’s Right-Wing hardcore racist and white-supremacist and a member of the KKK. There’s a massive difference. Some people in this thread clearly do not realize that and that’s kind of scary

David Duke is a conservative. Just because he is a racist does not make him a conservative. Where his identified core beliefs land on the political sphere identify who and what he is. Duke espouses conservative ideals and as such is a conservative. Is he representative of a large swath of conservatives? Nope. But that doesn't change the fact that his brand is conservative. If you can't realize this, I don't know what to tell you.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by New Era

David Duke is a conservative. Just because he is a racist does not make him a conservative. Where his identified core beliefs land on the political sphere identify who and what he is. Duke espouses conservative ideals and as such is a conservative. Is he representative of a large swath of conservatives? Nope. But that doesn't change the fact that his brand is conservative. If you can't realize this, I don't know what to tell you.

See this is where you are wrong, you are placing everyone in the right of the political sphere as conservatives. That alone is dangerous and like the previous poster said, it is like claiming every liberal is a socialist. David Duke is Right-Wing, he believes in a white state. I don’t know what rationale conservative would believe that. You guys keep grouping everyone into the right into one box to fit your narrative and agenda. You clearly have one view as to why people are conservative and I think you need to open up your mind and bit more. It is not all based on patriarchy or religion.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

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[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Beninho

See this is where you are wrong, you are placing everyone in the right of the political sphere as conservatives. That alone is dangerous and like the previous poster said, it is like claiming every liberal is a socialist. David Duke is Right-Wing, he believes in a white state. I don’t know what rationale conservative would believe that. You guys keep grouping everyone into the right into one box.

And everyone left of center is considered a liberal, which is conflated with socialism. What is your point? Ideological belief is established through what values you embrace. Where those ideals fall on any one of a number of survey tools will establish your ideological leanings. Left of center means your more liberal in your beliefs. Right of center means you are more conservative in your beliefs. Depending on how extreme your beliefs, you'll end up to the extreme side/end of the spectrum. Just like you can't pick your relatives, you can't pick who else ascribes to the same beliefs you do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

The link does not help your argument. You'll notice that almost every diagram has the right identified as conservative. For Duke, I would identify him as a theoconservative with some paleoconservative leanings. Duke relies on an old world dogma that is damn near religious in its presentation. Still makes him a conservative.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by New Era

And everyone left of center is considered a liberal, which is conflated with socialism. What is your point? Ideological belief is established through what values you embrace. Where those ideals fall on any one of a number of survey tools will establish your ideological leanings. Left of center means your more liberal in your beliefs. Right of center means you are more conservative in your beliefs. Depending on how extreme your beliefs, you'll end up to the extreme side/end of the spectrum. Just like you can't pick your relatives, you can't pick who else ascribes to the same beliefs you do.







The link does not help your argument. You'll notice that almost every diagram has the right identified as conservative. For Duke, I would identify him as a theoconservative with some paleoconservative leanings. Duke relies on an old world dogma that is damn near religious in its presentation. Still makes him a conservative.

I think you are looking at this through absolutism, there are clear distinct differences of being a conservative to a white nationalist. They are not all lumped together under conservatism. You are over-simplifying the political spectrum. Your mind is already made up though, keep believing patriarchy and religion is what only decides why someone is a conservative. I don’t place Nazism or communism as an extremes of liberalism, but by your definition it is. That doesn’t fit your narrative though so I’m sure you will disagree. This over-generalization from people on both sides of the spectrum is what has contributed to such a toxic political atmosphere. Conservatism is not white nationalism, liberalism is not socialism or communism.


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[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I think you are looking at this through absolutism, there are clear distinct differences of being a conservative to a white nationalist.

Sure there are. Just like there are differences between cultural conservatives, social conservatives, neoconservatives, paleoconservatives, theoconservatives, fiscal conservatives, and (my favorite) crunchy conservatives. Bottom line is they embrace many of the same values and ideals. Here in the United States those values would include individual liberty, pro-market economics, anti-communism, deregulation and smaller government (or so they say on the latter), low taxes, a belief in Judeo-Christian ideals (over all others), and a defense of the Western European/American tradition. Those values establish conservatism in a nutshell. The extent to which you will defend any of those values establishes where you are on the spectrum.

They are not all lumped together under conservatism.

Well, I'm not. You're trying to cut conservatism into onion skin slices so you can claim you are not party to the likes of David Duke. What I am telling you is that he embraces many of the same values and beliefs you do, which makes him conservative in nature. Where that differentiation comes in is his radical belief in a couple of important values, which differentiates you from him on the conservative spectrum.

You are over-simplifying the political spectrum.

But I'm not. This isn't complex. See the link to follow.

Your mind is already made up though, keep believing patriarchy and religion is what only decides why someone is a conservative.

Patriarchy and religion are really irrelevant to be honest with you. It is the values that members of each of those groups that hold that are important. Again, it boils down to what you believe and the conviction you will place on those beliefs as to where you shake out on the political spectrum.

I don’t place Nazism or communism as an extremes of liberalism, but by your definition it is.

I hope you don't place them together as they are competing ideologies. Communism is the extreme left of the political spectrum, and as such is part and parcel of the liberal left. It's the extreme left, but it is the left all the same. Nazism is not the left. Again, check their values, they ascribe to more values and beliefs of the right than they do the left. This is the point. Values and beliefs determine your political leanings, not who or what you claim to be. For example, a certain poster can claim to be a liberal, but the values he embraces and the dogma he preaches shows him to be a conservative. You can try and run away from what you are, but your actions will tip your hand. Values and beliefs.

That doesn’t fit your narrative though so I’m sure you will disagree. This over-generalization from people on both sides of the spectrum is what has contributed to such a toxic political atmosphere. Conservatism is not white nationalism, liberalism is not socialism or communism.

I'll say this again. Ultimately, your beliefs and values determine where you fall on the political spectrum. Please take this simple test (10 minutes) to see what I mean. No loaded questions, just a measure of your response to values based questions. I hope this is enlightening and will give you more clarity on determination of political leaning.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

[Beninho]

I highly disagree with major parts of your rationale but appreciate the discussion. Nazi’s were socialist, but like I said it doesn’t fit with your perception of who is on the left or right. I was unaware members of the left can’t be racist, whoops.




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[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by New Era

Well, I'm not. You're trying to cut conservatism into onion skin slices so you can claim you are not party to the likes of David Duke. What I am telling you is that he embraces many of the same values and beliefs you do, which makes him conservative in nature. Where that differentiation comes in is his radical belief in a couple of important values, which differentiates you from him on the conservative spectrum.

David Duke embraces many of the same values liberals, the left, and even the far left do, which makes him liberal in nature. Oh wait... perhaps it's not our similarities that define where we fit, but our differences.

Communism is the extreme left of the political spectrum, and as such is part and parcel of the liberal left.

Communism is fundamentally at odds with the liberal left. It's clearly left. But being left doesn't not make it liberal. To suggest so is to make the same fundamental logical flaw as saying all poodles are dogs, therefore all dogs are poodles. All of the liberal left is left, but not all of the left is liberal. It's core principles conflict with the fundamental belief in individual liberty that anyone who is liberal must hold to. Again, there's a wide spectrum beliefs in terms of how to achieve this, but communism is not liberalism. They are incompatible at a fundamental level.

[Red Slinger]

Nazi's were socialist? They believed in and supported private industry.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I highly disagree with major parts of your rationale but appreciate the discussion.

Nazi’s were socialist

No, they weren't. No more than North Koreans are a party of Democrats and believe in democratic ideals. Just because they attached a name to themselves does not mean they were/are such.

I was unaware members of the left can’t be racist, whoops.

Hmmmm, don't ever recall saying anything like that. There are many people on the left who have abhorrent ideals as well. Communists are very strict in many things and were very hateful in their own way. They imprisoned homosexuals for example. Stalin was brutal toward anyone who did not meet his ideal of Soviet purity and sent them to the gulag. Much of that was related to race or ethnicity. So I have no idea what orifice you pulled that from, but it was nothing I said nor believe to be true.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by New Era

No, they weren't. No more than North Koreans are a party of Democrats and believe in democratic ideals. Just because they attached a name to themselves does not mean they were/are such.







Hmmmm, don't ever recall saying anything like that. There are many people on the left who have abhorrent ideals as well. Communists are very strict in many things and were very hateful in their own way. They imprisoned homosexuals for example. Stalin was brutal toward anyone who did not meet his ideal of Soviet purity and sent them to the gulag. Much of that was related to race or ethnicity. So I have no idea what orifice you pulled that from, but it was nothing I said nor believe to be true.

You said the Nazis held more values that were on the Right then on the left. Which made me infer that you believe racist ideologies are solely from the Right. The Nazis nationalized major sectors of the economy while maintaining the corporations original names. They were socialist.


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[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Nazi's were socialist? They believed in and supported private industry.

Not to mention that socialists and leftists were two of the groups categorized for extermination by the Nazis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

It's sad... don't they teach WW2 in history these days?

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...the-socialists

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You said the Nazis held more values that were on the Right then on the left. Which made me infer that you believe racist ideologies are solely from the Right.

If jumping to conclusions was an Olympic sport...

[Beninho]

Is nationalization of major sectors of industry and re-appropriation of land and wealth not major aspects to socialism? In its pure form I think that’s exactly what Socialism is and is exactly what the Nazis did in a more perverted and racist way.


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[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If jumping to conclusions was an Olympic sport...

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Is nationalization of major sectors of industry and re-appropriation of land not major aspects to socialism?


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Not when the benefits don't go to the people, no. Then it's just stealing.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Not when the benefits don't go to the people, no. Then it's just stealing.

Hmm I know many instances where Germans benefited from Jews being eradicated. Jobs opened up, houses were looted/re-occupied, and Jewish wealth was re-distributed and never returned. You can argue this is a perversion of socialism but socialism none the less. When Jews went back to Germany to re-claim their property there were average Germans living in their homes, not Nazis. That’s Socialism in its pure form to me!

Nazis loved identity politics, they loved what they viewed as progressive science (eugenics), they loved to create “us vs them” narratives. Sounds similar to the progressive left today.


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