Ovi 894?

[crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I see it more like

19/20 - 55
20/21 - 45
21/22 - 33
22/23 - 26
23/24 - 18
24/25 - 13
25/26 - 8

Total - 863

AO relies on timing and a quick hard shot, after 35/36 one needs to be super human to keep the fast twitch muscles working, AO is a lot of things but he's not super human and he will loose it, I doubt he even lasts till 40 so it's mute.

While I agree somewhat about the ageing of the muscles, that seems like a really steep drop. Iggy during his final seasons leading up to his 40-year old season scored 29, 22 and 14 goals. I don't see why Ovechkin during the same timeframe would score significantly less in the range of 18, 13 and 8.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I see it more like

19/20 - 55
20/21 - 45
21/22 - 33
22/23 - 26
23/24 - 18
24/25 - 13
25/26 - 8

Total - 863

AO relies on timing and a quick hard shot, after 35/36 one needs to be super human to keep the fast twitch muscles working, AO is a lot of things but he's not super human and he will loose it, I doubt he even lasts till 40 so it's mute.

*moot

Also, Ovi would definitely retire after that 18 goal season

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Whenever I see this list it just makes me think how silly Iggy's omission from the Top100 was (7th).

Nearly 100 more adjusted goals than Gartner. With adjustments, Iggy would have had fifteen 30goal seasons, Gartner would have dropped to fourteen. Not to say I'd kick Gartner out (Keith, Toews, and Sundin GTFO)


Back to Ovechkin - it's always astounding to look at his stats: fourteen consecutive 30+ goal seasons (unadjusted). Career lows of 32 (79gp), 33 (82), 38 (78) - every other season has been 46+. Insanity.

That Iggy snub is just complete horsecrap and pisses me off to this day.

His only "knock" was that he didn't finish his career at ppg, but 625 goddam goals speak for itself.

[Erick Estrada]

The most impressive thing to me is that today's goaltenders are so much better today than at any other time in NHL history. Not to take anything away from Gretzky or any other player from that era but if you look at his 80's highlights it's laughable how bad the goaltending was in the 80's relative to today. The goaltenders were small, equipment was small, and a lot of them played a stand up style that led to a lot of net to shoot at.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Would love to see it.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The most impressive thing to me is that today's goaltenders are so much better today than at any other time in NHL history. Not to take anything away from Gretzky or any other player from that era but if you look at his 80's highlights it's laughable how bad the goaltending was in the 80's relative to today. The goaltenders were small, equipment was small, and a lot of them played a stand up style that led to a lot of net to shoot at.

You can counter that with composite sticks have really improved players shots in today's NHL. Imagine Mike Bossy or Al MacInnis with a composite stick.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by pepper24

You can counter that with composite sticks have really improved players shots in today's NHL. Imagine Mike Bossy or Al MacInnis with a composite stick.

They make a difference, but it's nowhere near the difference between 80s goalies and today's.

Today's shots are improved because of training and practice. In the good ol days, players came to camp to get in shape. These days, if you come to camp out of shape, you get sent to the minors. Players have all sorts of skills coaches, including in the off-season, not least of which are shooting coaches. Training is the difference in today's players shot vs in the 80s.

I doubt even the great Al MacInnes gets an extra mile or two per hour on his clapper with a $300 composite.

Wooden sticks had flex too, people seem to forget.

[jlh2640]

No chance

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

They make a difference, but it's nowhere near the difference between 80s goalies and today's.

Today's shots are improved because of training and practice. In the good ol days, players came to camp to get in shape. These days, if you come to camp out of shape, you get sent to the minors. Players have all sorts of skills coaches, including in the off-season, not least of which are shooting coaches. Training is the difference in today's players shot vs in the 80s.

I doubt even the great Al MacInnes gets an extra mile or two per hour on his clapper with a $300 composite.

Wooden sticks had flex too, people seem to forget.

No, the difference is much greater than what you're suggesting.

Sure, if you compare MacInnes' best shot with lumber vs his best with a composite, the lumber probably holds up fairly well. But rarely is there time in a game to get the perfect shot off.

Where today's sticks make a huge difference is when you don't get that perfect shot. It's like perimeter-weighted clubs vs blades in golf. With forgiving clubs, you get 90-95% distance on a missed shot. With blades, you're lucky to get 60-70%.

Look at Tkachuk's goal last night. That shot is not possible with a piece of lumber. Well, by not possible, I mean he is not getting a strong shot on net, he's pushing a flub into the corner.

Goalie pads are completely different now, no doubt about it. But so is everything else, which is why the scoring numbers have only changed by as much as they have.

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The most impressive thing to me is that today's goaltenders are so much better today than at any other time in NHL history. Not to take anything away from Gretzky or any other player from that era but if you look at his 80's highlights it's laughable how bad the goaltending was in the 80's relative to today. The goaltenders were small, equipment was small, and a lot of them played a stand up style that led to a lot of net to shoot at.

the "defense" from that era was just as bad, if not worse. yes, the goalies were like swiss cheese compared to today's standard, but Gretzky was also able to waltz right up to the circle with ease whenever he wanted and take a slapper with zero resistance from the defenders. people complain about gap control these days would have their brains cave in if they watched enough footage from 35 years ago.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by crapshoot

While I agree somewhat about the ageing of the muscles, that seems like a really steep drop. Iggy during his final seasons leading up to his 40-year old season scored 29, 22 and 14 goals. I don't see why Ovechkin during the same timeframe would score significantly less in the range of 18, 13 and 8.

Iggy worked his ass off to stay in shape, he was probably in better shape at 39 than Ovechkin is now.

[curves2000]

I think Ovi's numbers are just unreal in so many ways but there are a few pointers I would like to add when looking at hockey's greatest goal scorers.

People always discount the effect and the contributions that the WHA had on NHL records and goals. Like it or not but enough quality talent played in the league that it had an effect on the numbers for the NHL history book. Current NHL players don't need to worry about a competing North American league at the moment.

Here are the professional totals for both WHA and NHL for some of the top goal scorers in hockey history. Regular season only.

Gordie Howe: 975
Wayne Gretzky: 940
Bobby Hull: 913

Honorable Mention goes to Jaromir Jagr with a total of 848 goals with KHL and NHL.

When you look at the list, Ovi still has some ways to go from a total historic perspective but hes on a solid way there, and impressive feat no doubt.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

*moot

Also, Ovi would definitely retire after that 18 goal season

Would he? I would say he definitely wouldn't if he had a large contract for the next year.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I think Ovi's numbers are just unreal in so many ways but there are a few pointers I would like to add when looking at hockey's greatest goal scorers.

People always discount the effect and the contributions that the WHA had on NHL records and goals. Like it or not but enough quality talent played in the league that it had an effect on the numbers for the NHL history book. Current NHL players don't need to worry about a competing North American league at the moment.

Here are the professional totals for both WHA and NHL for some of the top goal scorers in hockey history. Regular season only.

Gordie Howe: 975
Wayne Gretzky: 940
Bobby Hull: 913

Honorable Mention goes to Jaromir Jagr with a total of 848 goals with KHL and NHL.

When you look at the list, Ovi still has some ways to go from a total historic perspective but hes on a solid way there, and impressive feat no doubt.

For most of the WHA’s existence there were over 30 professional teams who more or less took players from two countries. Now there are 31 teams that take players 6 main countries (7 if you include the rest of the world as a source of talent). You can make a pretty good argument that if he has the opportunity to play a bunch of teams that had Mark Jankowski as their number two center due to only taking players from North America that ovi would have many more goals.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

For most of the WHA’s existence there were over 30 professional teams who more or less took players from two countries. Now there are 31 teams that take players 6 main countries (7 if you include the rest of the world as a source of talent). You can make a pretty good argument that if he has the opportunity to play a bunch of teams that had Mark Jankowski as their number two center due to only taking players from North America that ovi would have many more goals.

I am amazed at the lengths CP posters will go to, to find a way to vilify Mark Jankowski in seemingly unrelated threads.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

I am amazed at the lengths CP posters will go to, to find a way to vilify Mark Jankowski in seemingly unrelated threads.

Fine, a league where Jake Virtanen is a first line winger. My point was average players were 2nd liners in the 70’s and current AHLers and ECHLers were 3rd and 4th liners. In 74/75 there were 33 teams between the WHA and the NHL and they more or less took players from one country, with a side helping of the USA and a bit of Europe. I suspect if you took the top 66 point producing centres from that year, 60 were from Canada. Last year Jankowski would have easily been in the top 60 Canadian centres in the nhl, so if the talent distribution was the same today, he moves up to a second line center. Ovi would have scored many more goals against such a diluted league. It was not meant to be a shot at Jankowski.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I think Ovi's numbers are just unreal in so many ways but there are a few pointers I would like to add when looking at hockey's greatest goal scorers.

People always discount the effect and the contributions that the WHA had on NHL records and goals. Like it or not but enough quality talent played in the league that it had an effect on the numbers for the NHL history book. Current NHL players don't need to worry about a competing North American league at the moment.

Here are the professional totals for both WHA and NHL for some of the top goal scorers in hockey history. Regular season only.

Gordie Howe: 975
Wayne Gretzky: 940
Bobby Hull: 913

Honorable Mention goes to Jaromir Jagr with a total of 848 goals with KHL and NHL.

When you look at the list, Ovi still has some ways to go from a total historic perspective but hes on a solid way there, and impressive feat no doubt.

If you're going to combine the other players' stats, you'd also need to factor in Ovechkin's 55 total goals scored in the KHL/RSL. Doing that puts him closer to Gretzky (who had 46 total goals in the WHA).

[Sheva #7]

ovie's fat, his offseason training leaves a lot to be desired - he will never get there

[powderjunkie]

As long as he doesn't win another cup he should be fine...another full summer bender on the wrong side of 35 could actually be a problem

[ForeverFlameFan]

I'm definitely rooting for him. He needs another good 40+ goal season to really push it.