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View Poll Results: How much confidence do you have in Flames mgmt in terms of Trading?
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1 - Low
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1 |
0.23% |
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2
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20 |
4.69% |
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3 - Moderate
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96 |
22.54% |
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4
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234 |
54.93% |
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5 - High
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75 |
17.61% |
08-07-2018, 11:15 AM
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#81
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
This ...
A discussion on a GM's trading status comes down to a minor trade.
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He's saying a bad trade is acting as an anchor to his overall grade. Which he then grades as average. It's not like he rated it a 1.
That's hardly chicken little.
He then expanded. But you're incredibly myopic on picking apart one section of his statement for some reason. Yes he said that, but he also said other things immediately directly relating to the topic.
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08-07-2018, 11:16 AM
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#82
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
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Lol, maybe I'm not the one getting emotional here.
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08-07-2018, 11:21 AM
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#83
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Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik-
He's saying a bad trade is acting as an anchor to his overall grade. Which he then grades as average. It's not like he rated it a 1.
That's hardly chicken little.
He then expanded. But you're incredibly myopic on picking apart one section of his statement for some reason. Yes he said that, but he also said other things immediately directly relating to the topic.
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He put a line in the sand and wouldn't go beyond 3 for a minor trade.
I pointed out his weighting on that trade looks too emotional to have it the deal breaker on a rating either upward or downward.
You disagree?
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08-07-2018, 11:21 AM
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#84
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Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
Lol, maybe I'm not the one getting emotional here.
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Not at all.
And nothing in my posting history of 20 years would suggest I would be. Can you say the same?
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08-07-2018, 11:24 AM
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#85
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
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Like I said, not interested in your attempts to turn this personal.
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08-07-2018, 11:27 AM
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#86
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Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
Like I said, not interested in your attempts to turn this personal.
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You suggested I was getting emotional.
Drop the innocent act ...
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08-07-2018, 11:29 AM
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#87
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik-
How is saying an awful trade is an awful trade Chicken Little?
People can talk about percentages on a 2nd round pick all day long. The fact is we celebrate getting them for Glencross and then dismiss them when we use one to get Lazar?
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Celebrate and dismiss them?
We got 2 2nds for a guy at the end of his career. Seems like good asset management.
We used one for a kid that was drafted in the first round. Oh no!
I think the good ship Flames will probably roll along, regardless.
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08-07-2018, 12:11 PM
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#88
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: NC
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I gave a 4 because Treliving wins almost all of his trades. If he loses one, it’s either because of the player’s performance (Lazar, Shinkaruk, Elliott), or in that rare case of trading your 1st rounder and not winning games with your acquired asset (Hamonic). That last one wasn’t on Treliving, that was on the team.
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08-07-2018, 12:43 PM
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#89
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Franchise Player
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This is about confidence, not about trade history. I'm of the view that Sutter literally saved the franchise with his early trades, most notably Kiprusoff. But after the Phaneuf and Kotalik disasters, I had 0 confidence in him. The earlier trades meant squat.
Similarly, I don't think that the Glencross trade, as good as it was four seasons ago, has any bearing on my confidence today. I think he's been an average 3, but if someone viewed him at a 2 or 4, I think that's fair.
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08-07-2018, 12:46 PM
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#90
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Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen
This is about confidence, not about trade history. I'm of the view that Sutter literally saved the franchise with his early trades, most notably Kiprusoff. But after the Phaneuf and Kotalik disasters, I had 0 confidence in him. The earlier trades meant squat.
Similarly, I don't think that the Glencross trade, as good as it was four seasons ago, has any bearing on my confidence today. I think he's been an average 3, but if someone viewed him at a 2 or 4, I think that's fair.
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Not a bad way of looking at it ... but to bring this full circle is the Lazar trade the one that has you worried about the man from a confidence standpoint?
I certainly wasn't trumpeting old roster shedding deals as a reason that you can't give the guy less than a four, but to hold the Lazar trade as some sort of maginot line didn't make much sense to me.
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08-07-2018, 12:53 PM
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#91
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan
I gave a 4 because Treliving wins almost all of his trades. If he loses one, it’s either because of the player’s performance (Lazar, Shinkaruk, Elliott), or in that rare case of trading your 1st rounder and not winning games with your acquired asset (Hamonic). That last one wasn’t on Treliving, that was on the team.
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Pretty easy to win almost every trade when the ones that do not look like wins are because the guys you traded for suck and that is not on you as a GM. If they do not suck, that is because you made a good trade. If they do suck (Lazar, Elliott, Shinkaruk) that is on the player. When the 1st is 10 picks higher than it "should" have been, that is also on the players. Not because the GM made a mistake, the players let him down.
With that as the objective criteria for all 31 GM's, I would give every GM in the NHL a 5 myself.
Hard to say that Washington lost the Glencross trade, it was probably an underpayment by Washington (and a clear win for them) but for the performance of Glencross in his time there. Same goes for Russell in Dallas and Hudler in Florida.
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08-07-2018, 12:59 PM
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#92
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen
This is about confidence, not about trade history. I'm of the view that Sutter literally saved the franchise with his early trades, most notably Kiprusoff. But after the Phaneuf and Kotalik disasters, I had 0 confidence in him. The earlier trades meant squat.
Similarly, I don't think that the Glencross trade, as good as it was four seasons ago, has any bearing on my confidence today. I think he's been an average 3, but if someone viewed him at a 2 or 4, I think that's fair.
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His most recent trade gives me more confidence than his previous 3.
Hard to square.
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08-07-2018, 01:01 PM
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#93
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Draft Pick
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I put a 3 as well, You cant judge the last big trade with Carolina until they all play and adapt to their new teams, as well as see how Fox will pan out. So I graded all the work before, some good, some bad, some meh.
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08-07-2018, 01:34 PM
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#94
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Scoring Winger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
See, in my mind, moving a 2nd round pick for Lazar should disqualify Treliving from a trade grade higher than 3.
That trade is WOEFUL.
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While the Lazar trade looks bad now, it's not so bad to the point that we need to shout hyperbole.
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08-07-2018, 01:42 PM
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#95
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinach
While the Lazar trade looks bad now, it's not so bad to the point that we need to shout hyperbole.
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It isn't even that bad when you look at typical 2nd rounders.
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08-07-2018, 02:10 PM
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#96
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
His most recent trade gives me more confidence than his previous 3.
Hard to square.
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This exactly.
In general, I think Treliving is prepared to pay a premium for what he wants. If you do that, your mistakes are going to stand out more than if you're a bargain shopper.
It is possible for reasonable people to have different views on this.
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08-07-2018, 03:01 PM
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#97
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Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Brew
This exactly.
In general, I think Treliving is prepared to pay a premium for what he wants. If you do that, your mistakes are going to stand out more than if you're a bargain shopper.
It is possible for reasonable people to have different views on this.
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Absolutely ... but who is suggesting otherwise?
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08-07-2018, 03:55 PM
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#98
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Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2016
Location: ATCO Field, Section 201
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Trading is a key element in team management. This is because trading impacts drafting, and cap managment directly. BT has been fairly even in his aquisition of picks vs trading picks with the exception of the Hamilton and Hamonic deals. All the same those deals
were for known commodities, and I apreciate that.
In terms of cap mamagement, BT has done well trading expiring contracts as well as moving none core players who wont fit the cap structure.
His most recent deal will likely be his lagacy deal as a GM but I will reserve judgement untill proof.
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08-07-2018, 03:57 PM
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#99
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
Absolutely ... but who is suggesting otherwise?
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Post #31 would seem to be an example of suggesting otherwise.
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08-07-2018, 04:18 PM
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#100
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First Line Centre
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Honestly only real blemish on his trading record is not getting MAF instead of Smith. Thats the only thing where I think it was a real miss, and this is of course with total hindsight.
I just think that the Pens would've given him away for less than what we paid for smith who has about equal injury concerns and is three years older.
But really that is a minor complaint in the grand scheme of things
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