[Rumour] Flames interested in Tobias Rieder

[868904]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

You're right, Ferland did have a bad second half. But like I said, he might not be the best answer, but he was the only answer at the time. They thrived together and he helped Gaudreau and Monahan to career years. To me, it's a big risk in breaking that chemistry and acquiring Elias Lindholm who's not a bonafide 1st liner himself.

This is why you are not an NHL GM because you are only focused on the short term.

Ferland was going to be a UFA and the Flames were going to be in a tough situation of re-signing Tkachuk, Bennett and Ferland.

It was always going to be a difficult choice and test. Treliving traded Ferland for a guy with greater control and a superior overall game (centremen, faceoffs, PK, PP).

I get what you are saying about Ferland, trust me, I am one of his biggest fans, he was my favourite Flame player, I think he's very skilled and was not just riding Gaudreau's coat-tails.

But the Ferland for Lindholm part of the deal is as much about asset management then anything else. Ferland can go anywhere he wants next year. Lindholm is "stuck" as a Flames for multiple years.

Flames traded a "40 point player" who had one year of control for another "40 point" player with multi years of control. To me, both players still have upside, and they each bring something a little differently, the big difference, and why the Flames win the deal, is because of player control.

You are too caught up on this goal replacement thing. If Hamilton isn't the trigger man on the powerplay, someone else will be. Giordano can shoot the puck, Andersson can shoot the puck. Both guys have a history of running powerplays. Hanifin can shoot the puck and has a history of running a powerplay.

Ferland's spot with Gaudreau and Monahan wiil get replaced by either Lindholm or Bennett. Both of those guys are capable of scoring 20 goals.

[Nelson]

This is great news. I like Rieder a lot for a bottom 6, PKing role. I understand the concern about him taking spots from Mangiapane, Dube and Foo. However, I think there could be spots for 2/3 of those prospects like this:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Tkachuk
Bennett - Backlund - Lindholm
Mangiapane - Jankowski - Frolik
Rieder - Ryan - Foo
Shore
Brouwer
Lazar and Dube to the AHL (if someone takes Lazar off waivers, so be it).

If Rieder has played on the German national team, I bet Geoff Ward, who is supposedly loved by players and in charge of the forwards, has coached Rieder. This could be the Flames in.

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Nelson

This is great news. I like Rieder a lot for a bottom 6, PKing role. I understand the concern about him taking spots from Mangiapane, Dube and Foo. However, I think there could be spots for 2/3 of those prospects like this:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Tkachuk
Bennett - Backlund - Lindholm
Mangiapane - Jankowski - Frolik
Rieder - Ryan - Foo
Shore
Brouwer
Lazar and Dube to the AHL (if someone takes Lazar off waivers, so be it).

If Rieder has played on the German national team, I bet Geoff Ward, who is supposedly loved by players and in charge of the forwards, has coached Rieder. This could be the Flames in.

I don't think they will re-sign Shore if they are going to bring in Ryan. I think Lazar will be moved for a pick or sent down.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Nelson

If Rieder has played on the German national team, I bet Geoff Ward, who is supposedly loved by players and in charge of the forwards, has coached Rieder. This could be the Flames in.

Good call, he has:
https://www.eliteprospects.com/team/...many/2016-2017
https://www.eliteprospects.com/team/...many/2016-2017
https://www.eliteprospects.com/team/...many/2015-2016
https://www.eliteprospects.com/team/...many/2014-2015

He also coached the German kid we signed, Yasin Ehliz.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I'm not a fan of Reaves and I've said that.
Vanek and Grabner are totally different guys. Vanek is a incredibly flawed player that you won't win with. Those are not guys I think the Flames should sign. The Flames do not need more one dimensional incomplete players.
Grabner though in a bottom 6 role I like.
But I don't know what you mean by depth pluggers. I don't view Ryan or Reider as a plugger.

The Flames have filled over half of their forward ranks with one dimensional grinders, pluggers etc that contribute next to nothing offensively in Hathaway, Lazar, Stajan, Glass, Stewart, Shore, Brouwer and even Bennett to this point has to be included until he starts to show some finish. Now the team might also throw in Reaves as well.

Most of these guys you can't even play in an offensive situation. How do you win with this many of the same player? Are many of these guys not incredibly flawed as it is as well? Adding a Reider or Ryan is nice and will improve the PK and ES play, but the upgrade does not really improve the PP, which is a massive part of the game the Flames never seem able to get a hold of.

At least adding one player such as Vanek or Grabner, despite their own flaws, in a limited PP role, for a very low cost to the team would give the special teams a significant shot in the arm to a tune of 20-25 goals they don't currently have. This could be the difference between a 20th and 10th overall PP unit and several points in the standings.

To me it is a no brainer to add one of these guys provided they can still be had on a 1 year deal.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The Flames have filled over half of their forward ranks with one dimensional grinders, pluggers etc that contribute next to nothing offensively in Hathaway, Lazar, Stajan, Glass, Stewart, Shore, Brouwer and even Bennett to this point has to be included until he starts to show some finish. Now the team might also throw in Reaves as well.

Most of these guys you can't even play in an offensive situation. How do you win with this many of the same player? Are many of these guys not incredibly flawed as it is as well? Adding a Reider or Ryan is nice and will improve the PK and ES play, but the upgrade does not really improve the PP, which is a massive part of the game the Flames never seem able to get a hold of.

At least adding one player such as Vanek or Grabner, despite their own flaws, in a limited PP role, for a very low cost to the team would give the special teams a significant shot in the arm to a tune of 20-25 goals they don't currently have. This could be the difference between a 20th and 10th overall PP unit and several points in the standings.

To me it is a no brainer to add one of these guys provided they can still be had on a 1 year deal.

Again I'm not for signing Reaves so not sure why you are arguing with me about that.
And I also think there is enough talent to have a good PP.
Vanek and Grabner are actually completely different players.
Vanek is one dimensional and a terrible two way player
Grabner doesn't have great skill but is a great skater, good character and effective two way player.
The fact you group them together tells me you don't really understand who these guys are or what they offer
Grabner had 1 pp point last year

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by 868904

Ferland was going to be a UFA and the Flames were going to be in a tough situation of re-signing Tkachuk, Bennett and Ferland.

Uh, no they weren't. Tkachuk's going to get paid, everyone knows that. But Bennett has no leverage with his near bust production. Ferland was a product of Gaudreau and Monahan and even his agent would have been hard pressed not to admit that.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Uh, no they weren't. Tkachuk's going to get paid, everyone knows that. But Bennett has no leverage with his near bust production. Ferland was a product of Gaudreau and Monahan and even his agent would have been hard pressed not to admit that.

That would make for a really crappy agent.

[CliffFletcher]

Good. Rieder >> Reaves.

[Buff]

Is Brad trying to put together a Pirate Line?

Ryan, Reaves, Reider.

RRR.


I'll see myself out.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by devo22

go watch a Lindholm video and watch him screening and redirecting pucks. He'll be a massive help. And oh, don't forget Geoff Ward ...

People are too focused on a top 6 forward. Non-existent secondary scoring killed us last year, yet people complain when Treliving correctly goes after players like Ryan and Rieder who'd actually give us a competent 3rd line for once. Mind-boggling.

I think the argument is more like add better players to the top 6 and push good players down to the bottom six, rather than just bring in new bottom 6 players.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I think the argument is more like add better players to the top 6 and push good players down to the bottom six, rather than just bring in new bottom 6 players.

I understand the argument, but "go and get a top 6 forward" is easier said than done. Overpaying a UFA and regretting that contract for years doesn't help. And as for a trade - I don't think people would be happy if we traded yet another 1st and one of the few good prospects we have.

The top 6 are fine IMO. Lindholm is a huge upgrade over Ferland and Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk und Backlund were hardly the problem last year. It's the bottom 6 that needs a serious facelift.

[Geeoff]

I think it's worth noting that the Flames will probably not end up signing every guy they are rumoured to be targeting. And also, it's pretty rare that things actually leak out of the Flames camp. I think we've probably already agreed to a deal with Ryan that just can't be announced until July 1 but everything else is up in the air IMO.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I think that the Flames need a top 6 RW. I am convinced that the scoring woes this team faced was MOSTLY systems-related, and not necessarily personnel related. With that being said, if Treliving can upgrade any player, then he should do so, as long as two things are being considered:


1) Term and cap hit - bottom 6 guys shouldn't have either of these, especially 4th liners.
2) Proper slotting. Remember Darryl Sutter and his '20 goal scorers'? Well, what happens when you take a player from a team that has performed really well? Does he in turn perform very well for your team? Not necessarily. You have to keep in mind: "Is this player going to be getting as much opportunity here as he did on his previous team? Ice time? Line mates? PP? Offensive starts? If he isn't, his numbers will probably drop.


I do think that if this team plays with more pace, the scoring will come. If they structure their offensive zone time into something a bit more aggressive - attack the net more, cross-crease passes, tap-ins, redirects - this was absent last season for incredibly long stretches, I think that then the Flames scoring will go up.



I really like Dube as a prospect, but he will at most get call-up duty this season. You can't expect him to instantly contribute. The NHL is a big step up, and he probably will need some seasoning. Foo I think looked ready in his last call-up.


If the Flames make no moves this UFA period, I am still satisfied.


Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Bennett - Jankowski - Tkachuk
Frolik - Backlund - Foo
Mangiapane - Lazar - Brouwer


Brouwer is the one player that sticks out still - add some speed to that 4th line on the right side, and I bet it would be a fairly decent 4th line.


Giordano - Brodie
Hanifin - Hamonic
Kulak - Stone/Andersson


I think with the new system, a lot of offence can (and should) be generated off the D. Gulutzan didn't utilize the D effectively into the system. Peters says he will.



I want any 4th line player that gets signed to be fast and defensively responsible. Having PK duty will help this team and alleviate some minutes from Backlund/Frolik. Stajan PK'd quite a bit. Flames need to sign someone with Stajan's strengths - PK ability, leadership, decent on faceoffs - but with more speed and more scoring upside. If not, you hope that finding someone on the RW on the 4th line will help get Lazar and Mangiapane going a bit.


I am all for upgrades anywhere on the roster where possible. I am just worried that the incoming players signing bigger deals to play lesser roles will fail to generate points to meet their respective cap expectations.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by Buff

Is Brad trying to put together a Pirate Line?

Ryan, Reaves, Reider.

RRR.


I'll see myself out.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Again I'm not for signing Reaves so not sure why you are arguing with me about that.
And I also think there is enough talent to have a good PP.
Vanek and Grabner are actually completely different players.
Vanek is one dimensional and a terrible two way player
Grabner doesn't have great skill but is a great skater, good character and effective two way player.
The fact you group them together tells me you don't really understand who these guys are or what they offer
Grabner had 1 pp point last year

There's a massive difference between having enough to get by and evolving into a 2 unit powerhouse. What exactly is this team striving for? A second unit consisting of the players the Flames currently have is just not good enough.

Grouping wingers together because they're wingers that score? Forgive me for taking such a leap of faith. Usage is what has lead Grabner to minimal PP production compared to Vanek and there is little doubt that he would see significant time here ahead of the current wingers. Who cares if Vanek is one-dimensional, this team can shelter him and put him in situations to succeed. You seem completely unable to provide any reason other than an obvious personal bias as to why Vanek would not help the Flames.

As I've said, character is so important that we can stock the Flames roster with useless plugs that can't even play an offensive role, yet Vanek is a non-starter for you? Saying that makes me think you don't really understand what has been plaguing the team - offensive production beyond the top 5-6 forwards. What have all these 'character' guys done for the team the last number of seasons?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What do any of those guys have to to do with the guys they are rumored to be going after?
Or are you basically saying that in some sort of magical way BT should just produce some top line wingers.

I’m not even against the idea necessarily of upgrading our bottom 6 as they were without a doubt our worst performers last season. But we’ve heard 3 names rumored here and I don’t think any of these 3 solve our goal scoring problems next season and ditto goes for the blockbuster trade.

The idea of Treliving focusing his energies and cap space on tertiary players that don’t move the middle much doesn’t sit well for me and shouldn’t for a team that finished tied in the bottom 5 in goal scoring.

When Treliving spoke about adding more skill at his year end presser, I definitely didn’t envision trading away Hamilton, Ferland and Fox while just adding Lindholm and Hanifin or those other 3 rumored players.

[Heavy Jack]

You realize lots can happen from now until September ? You don’t know who Treliving is look at or not and it’s been rumoured that he is looking to add to the top 6 still by many different outlets.

For the trade too you can’t just say that we have a definite drop in goal scoring without seeing how Lindholm and Hanifin gel with this team. I think there is a good chance Hanifin gets 10 again and Lindholm could easily get to 20 with more opportunity and a more solidified roll.

I miss Ferly no question and I feel like Hamilton was improperly used at times here in Calgary sure but the two players we got back are right in the same age group as our core and are set to sign long term contracts that strengthen the depth of this team going forward.

It’s fine to be critical of the team but you can’t be critical of them based on supposed rumours at this point. I’m hoping to see guys like Rieder and Ryan signed because I think our biggest issue last year was secondary scoring from the bottom 6 and if we can add one more piece into the top 6 it will be hard not to expect/see an overall improvement in scoring throughout the 4 lines and into the defence.

As a fan of this team I tend to lend my heart to homerish optimism but it’s a lot more enjoyable to be optimisic about the future or your team and I do actually feel like the core of our club is better today than it was before the trade.

[EVERLAST]

https://youtu.be/yzAVxUbRQ68

He scores 2 short handed goals against the coil.....in 58 seconds.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Again, this simple (and very small sampled) stat is not proof of your singular conclusion.

Ask yourself if it seems reasonable that a replacement level player like Versteeg actually swings the talent level on the Flames from 11th to 30th in the league. Or, perhaps there might be other things going on.

Small sample? That was the entire tenure of the coaching staff I gave up until the injury. That’s an entire season, playoffs and a 1/3 of season where the PP and its systems was one of the better ones in the league.

You want to talk about small sample sizes? How about everyone here trying to fire the the coaching staff when the PP was struggling for a few weeks. That’s a small sample size. In fact, Dave Cameron was fired because of that short sample size because his PP was more good than bad through his time with the Flames.

I already looked at the numbers and watched every game and the hypothesis that I came up with was backed up by the final numbers when I looked at it at the end of the season. You can come up with any other theory you want, but when a good PP and good systems drops nearly 9% and down 20 spots, it’s pretty hard to ignore the correlation/causation.