[Signing] Canucks sign Horvat (6 yrs, $5.5 mil AAV)

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Love

It's more the opposite. It's like people aren't allowed to formulate their own opinions without being name-called.

Says the person who just called everyone else in the thread a sheep.

Get over yourself.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Although I don't dispute he is better then Horvat, looking at total points isn't the best way to evaluate production over a long time period. It ignores players like McDavid, Mathews, and Eichel who have recently broken into the league and ignores players like Stamkos that dealt with injuries over that time span.

If you look at points per game (min of 80 GP) Monahan is 23 overall (Horvat is 79. On LW Gaudreau is 4 and Tkachuk is 24). Based on point production he is a 'lower-ended' top line centre.

Points aren't everything, and Monahan is a top goal scorer which bumps his value, but he doesn't play a top defensive game, he isn't physical, and his face offs are average. Let's hope Monahan finds another offensive level, improves his defensive play, or we see another player (like Bennett) develop into a top 10 producer at the position.

Monahan took the most faceoffs for the Flames last season and had the best winning percentage at 51.5%. You know what center also had a 51.5% percentage? David Krejci. You know what center had a 43.5%? Mark Scheifle. The bottom line is that he's improved year over year since his rookie season and most of the centers with better FO% are veteran centers. I have no doubt in a few more seasons he will be in the 54%+ range and top 20 centers in this metric as centers typically improve on this stat as they age.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Monahan took the most faceoffs for the Flames last season and had the best winning percentage at 51.5%. You know what center also had a 51.5% percentage? David Krejci. You know what center had a 43.5%? Mark Scheifle. The bottom line is that he's improved year over year since his rookie season and most of the centers with better FO% are veteran centers. I have no doubt in a few more seasons he will be in the 54%+ range and top 20 centers in this metric as centers typically improve on this stat as they age.

Not a bit of that changes they he is average on the dot. There were 55 centres who took 1000 draws or more last season. He was 29 on that list.

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[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Love

...I mean I'm sure this same sentiment would have been echo'd in 2015 if one tried to argue that they liked Schiefele over Nugent-Hopkins going forward. We all know that cliche saying about a marathon vs. a sprint. Monahan outproducing Horvat in 2014 does not guarantee him to be the better player in 2018 or any future years going forward.

I generally agree with most of your post, but I will take issue with this: Sean Monahan has outproduced Bo Horvat in every season—including last year when he was hampered by an injury that probably affected his effectiveness in the first six weeks. That counts for a lot, in my opinion. It counted for a lot in 2015 in the comparison between Mark Scheifele and Ryan Nugget-Hopkins, but do you honestly see ANY similarities between Nugent-Hopkins and Monahan that might suggest that he is likewise to start tailing off in production?

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Not a bit of that changes they he is average on the dot. There were 55 centres who took 1000 draws or more last season. He was 29 on that list.

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There were 59 centres who took over 1000 face offs last year, by my review, and he was 18th in total wins.

[Love]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Says the person who just called everyone else in the thread a sheep.

Get over yourself.

Yes because that absolutely unprovoked right

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

There were 59 centres who took over 1000 face offs last year, by my review, and he was 18th in total wins.

Because he took more draws then other centres on the list. Not sure why anyone is arguing that Monahan is better then average on the face off dot.

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[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Because he took more draws then other centres on the list. Not sure why anyone is arguing that Monahan is better then average on the face off dot.

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So if you only take the 59 busiest (and likely the best on their teams) faceoff players then Monahan is average? I had no idea only 59 players took draws last season.

Being average amongst the best NHL centres at draws is great.

To date Horvat isn't even in the conversation with Monahan. I also completely disagree with the sentiment that Horvat is some elite defensive centre. He is not Ryan Kessler. Maybe someday he will get there, but he's not now.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I generally agree with most of your post, but I will take issue with this: Sean Monahan has outproduced Bo Horvat in every season—including last year when he was hampered by an injury that probably affected his effectiveness in the first six weeks. That counts for a lot, in my opinion. It counted for a lot in 2015 in the comparison between Mark Scheifele and Ryan Nugget-Hopkins, but do you honestly see ANY similarities between Nugent-Hopkins and Monahan that might suggest that he is likewise to start tailing off in production?

He hasn't though, as has been pointed out

Their even strength stats are very similar this past season and Horvat has played with worse quality linemates and against higher quality competition

Situations play a big factor in counting stats

Alex ovechkins 50 goal seasons are different than Jonathan cheechoos in terms of who was driving the bus

I don't think it can be judged who is better at this point due to age, but as to who is better in their mid-late 20s in their prime it is arguably a toss up right now

[ripTDR]

holy crap hockey needs to start soon.

they are different players who are going to see each other a lot.

cant we enjoy watching good hockey between them? i know i will

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

He hasn't though, as has been pointed out

Their even strength stats are very similar this past season and Horvat has played with worse quality linemates and against higher quality competition

Situations play a big factor in counting stats

Alex ovechkins 50 goal seasons are different than Jonathan cheechoos in terms of who was driving the bus

I don't think it can be judged who is better at this point due to age, but as to who is better in their mid-late 20s in their prime it is arguably a toss up right now

It's a toss up for Vancouver fans. Everyone else knows that players don't magically learn scoring touch, and Monahan just has more than Horvat.

And it's funny that Monahan is anproduct of his situation, whereas Horvat is the second coming.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

He hasn't though, as has been pointed out

Their even strength stats are very similar this past season and Horvat has played with worse quality linemates and against higher quality competition

Situations play a big factor in counting stats

Alex ovechkins 50 goal seasons are different than Jonathan cheechoos in terms of who was driving the bus

I don't think it can be judged who is better at this point due to age, but as to who is better in their mid-late 20s in their prime it is arguably a toss up right now

statistical analysis...

First of all, even strength stats are great - in that they are a way to define a similar situation in order to make a fair comparison.

The problem arises however, when people put too much weight on one statistical item, and ignore others in order to make a point. Case in point: ignoring PP stats entirely.

Why are some players on the PP while other players are not? Is it random luck? Is it coach's favourtism? The primary reason is plain and simple: players are put on the PP because they are offensively gifted. So ignoring PP points ignores a vital fact: the player gets PP time, and thus points, because they have earned it.

Comparing Horvat's 5on5 point production to Monahan's 5on5 point production is fine. However, simply ignoring the fact that Monahan is on the 1st PP unit, and thus scores 30 goals a year, is obtuse at best.

[Barca]

great deal, he has gotten better every year playing with crappy linemates. This season he will have Boeser and possibly Vanek on his wings.

[Barca]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I agree with your post overall. But considering his career high is 52 points, it's a bit of a stretch to say that his floor is 55-60 points.

his first 2 season he was trying to make chicken salad out of chicken ####. in his first couple of seasons his linemates were Dorsett, Megna, Chaput, Kenins, Skille, Burrows. Beartschi was really his only regular linemate.

Willie D had him playing on the 4th line at the start of last season lol and he barely got any PP time.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Barca

his first 2 season he was trying to make chicken salad out of chicken ####. in his first couple of seasons his linemates were Dorsett, Megna, Chaput, Kenins, Skille, Burrows. Beartschi was really his only regular linemate.

Willie D had him playing on the 4th line at the start of last season lol and he barely got any PP time.

So therefore his career high of 52 points means that his floor is 55-60 points?

Nuck fans...

[Geeoff]

I think Horvat projects to be the best Canuck for the majority of this contract. I'm not sure if that's an indictment of the canucks roster or a compliment to Horvat. I guess a little of both.

[カナダ人です]

On a team full of hot garbage, Horvat is the exception. As others have pointed out, he is a driven guy and plays hard at both ends of the rink. He's improved every season, and I wouldn't be surprised to see 60+ points from him this coming season (i.e. Monahan numbers).

Hate the canucks or not, this is a good deal for (basically) their only good young player...

[ripTDR]

plus i dont think he has any no movement clauses

[calgaryblood]

Yikes, $5.5 million for Horvat? My god, wonder what a soon to be UFA in Backlund will command.

[Poster]

What kind of bizzaro CalPuck is this? Praising Borvat?