Women-only spa’s ‘no male genitals’ rule ignites transgender debate

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So if I walked into the womens/girls change room at the Southland Leisure Centre and stripped naked, any women or girls who got upset would be bigots?

As far as I'm aware, you don't identify as a woman. So no.

But great point, it's not like this hasn't been posted ad nauseam by bigots arguing against transgender rights.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

Well that's the joys of living in our country is we get to have different opinions and still be entitled to them. I think no one has a right to be discriminated against. However I feel what's considered discriminated against has become too big of a brush. By your viewpoints a place such as the YWCA is a sexist institution?

We discriminate all the time, where should we draw the line?

Money, looks, physical abilities, mental abilities, religion and skill are a few of many things we use to discriminate.

This country still allows parents to discriminate by sending them to different schools, based on religion or elitism.

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

As far as I'm aware, you don't identify as a woman. So no.

But great point, it's not like this hasn't been posted ad nauseam by bigots arguing against transgender rights.

Well what if a transgender woman who has their penis still does this and women are offended. As I've stated before I'm for transgender women using women's washrooms. I've been on the fence about pre op transgendered women using changerooms and I've always wondered what someone who is totally for its thoughts on that situation are. Too be fair even in the men's change room as a hetero male I find it a bit invasive when old men walk around flopping about or even doing What looked like nude yoga in the steam room I had the unfortunate pleasure of viewing one time. I tend to keep my nudity to a quick change.

So I can't imagine what women would think who hasn't grown up in change rooms with that prevalent. Obviously this is a rare situation as I'm sure most pre op transgender women would likely try to not make a spectacle. But I've often wondered what you would say of a trans women pre op who's got a bit more forward of an attitude like some of the men in change rooms.

[8 Ball]

Why can't people have clubs specifically geared to thier niche?

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

As far as I'm aware, you don't identify as a woman. So no.

He asked what the ladies and kids would think if he was walking around with his wang dangling around. Their perception should not be altered by how he identifies himself.

I don't like looking at dude's bratwursts flopping about in the men's change room, why is this any different?

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

But great point, it's not like this hasn't been posted ad nauseam by bigots arguing against transgender rights.

I think many of us truly do feel for the wide spectrum of people impacted by the whole gender/biology/sexuality situations that manifest. Life can be very difficult for them in so many ways. Canada has made many steps in the positive direction.

I think debates are healthy, calling people names not so much.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

Well what if a transgender woman who has their penis still does this and women are offended.

They have the right to be offended, but tough luck.

A women's a women. Doesn't matter what she was born with. That's the direction we're heading, it's a progressive and good change. History will remember those against this equality the same way we remember the racists, sexists and homophobes who were were against women's suffrage, for segregation, or against gay marriage. And each one of them thought they were right too, but those against transgender rights keep telling yourself your right on this one.

I mean, when you have over 40% of transgender people try to commit suicide, you would think that people would have a little compassion and just let them use a women's changing room or go to a women's spa. But I guess it's better we continue to let them kill themselves, face depression and addiction, rather than have someone accidentally get a glimpse of a non-sexualized penis maybe once or twice in their life.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I don't like looking at dude's bratwursts flopping about in the men's change room, why is this any different?

Wait what? But if you're uncomfortable with, shouldn't it be banned? Isn't that the argument being presented by the other side?

I don't like seeing dick either, but sometimes it's just there and I have to deal with it. Equality uncomfortable dick watching for all!

But seriously, a lot of time people see things they would rather not in the changing room or other nude areas. Turn away, try to erase the image from your mind. Don't ban a woman from going to a "women's only spa" because others are uncomfortable with her body.

And it's still going to be rare, the amount of transgender people who want to go to a nude spa who are pre-op and are comfortable going naked will be remarkably small. It's not going to be a penis epidemic on our hands. The small chance of catching a glimpse of a penis won't kill anyone. Continuing to treat transgender women as less than women will.

[DiracSpike]

If you have a penis, you're a man. Little girls shouldn't have to look at your dick just because the only place you exist as a woman is in your own head.

Keep fighting the good fight though, you're a modern day MLK.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

If you have a penis, you're a man.

Not by Albertan law.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/do...14abqb237.html


You would think that when your views are literally ruled unconstitutional that you would want to take a step back and reassess your beliefs. Maybe see if there's room for some growth. I'm ashamed to admit I, growing up very conservative, once held the same beliefs as you. You could probably go back and find posts on this account echoing similar sentiments as your own. But I guess rather than internal reflection it's easy to just label everyone as a SJW instead of getting with the times.

[DiracSpike]

You're not enlightened, you're brainwashed. I don't care what people identify as or what they get up to. You want to dress like a woman, use women's washrooms, that's fine. People shouldn't have their opportunities or housing or financing limited by being trans. But I absolutely draw the line at subjecting underage kids and any women who may have been abused/assaulted to the sight of male genitalia in a women's change room where there is a more than reasonable expectation that only biological females be allowed in.

Although thanks to the brainless zealotry by people like yourself I can probably expect to be dragged before some bull#### human rights tribunal in the future for that radical belief.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Not by Albertan law.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/do...14abqb237.html


You would think that when your views are literally ruled unconstitutional that you would want to take a step back and reassess your beliefs. Maybe see if there's room for some growth. I'm ashamed to admit I, growing up very conservative, once held the same beliefs as you. You could probably go back and find posts on this account echoing similar sentiments as your own. But I guess rather than internal reflection it's easy to just label everyone as a SJW instead of getting with the times.

At what point does the other side have to be realistic and pragmatic though?

I would love to have a transgender individual actually argue that they can't see why a woman may feel uncomfortable in spa with a pre op penis being around.

This isn't discrimination. This is literally hypocrisy at its best. Wanting to be treated as a women but not respecting women who feel a penis should not be around them in the no penis section of the spa

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

As far as I'm aware, you don't identify as a woman. So no.

But the women and girls in the changeroom don't know that. To them, a transgendered woman is indistinguishable from a man.

The issue is that most people feel uncomfortable being naked in front of people who display as the opposite gender. And most public facilities do not have the space to provide for private change areas for everyone. So there is a need for change areas where people can feel comfortable (less uncomfortable might be a better way to put it) being naked or seeing the naked bodies of other. Calling people who want those kinds of facilities bigots betrays an astonishingly dogmatic and narrow mind. May as well call them prudes while you're at it. No doubt that will help bring public opinion onside.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

any women who may have been abused/assaulted to the sight of male genitalia in a women's change room where there is a more than reasonable expectation that only biological females be allowed in.

That's an interesting argument given the prevalence of sexual assault committed against transgender individuals.

With most studies pointing towards over 50% of transgender individuals experiencing sexual violence, you would think someone who's beliefs stem from a viewpoint of "helping out sexual assault victims" you would be more compassionate to the plight of the transgender person. But of course that's not the case. If you actually cared about victims of sexual assault being subjected to their "attackers" you would be in favour of allowing transgender individuals selecting the facilities they are most comfortable with.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But the women and girls in the changeroom don't know that. To them, a transgendered woman is indistinguishable from a man.

I don't know. I think they might be able to tell the difference between her:


and a man.

Not that I want to get into a debate as to when a person who identifies as a woman becomes a woman based on appearance.

[Roast Beef]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

But I absolutely draw the line at subjecting underage kids and any women who may have been abused/assaulted to the sight of male genitalia in a women's change room where there is a more than reasonable expectation that only biological females be allowed in.

What about a transgender woman who has gone through Hormone Replacement Therapy but is still pre op? At this point they will have female looking breasts, feminine features etc, but they will still have a penis. What locker room do they go into?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

At what point does the other side have to be realistic and pragmatic though?

I would love to have a transgender individual actually argue that they can't see why a woman may feel uncomfortable in spa with a pre op penis being around.

I think they can understand why a woman might be uncomfortable with a penis around. Hell, want to take a guess who's probably most uncomfortable with that penis considering who's going to have it surgically removed?

Originally Posted by Jason14h

This isn't discrimination. This is literally hypocrisy at its best. Wanting to be treated as a women but not respecting women who feel a penis should not be around them in the no penis section of the spa

Identifying as a woman and wanting to go to a spa that advertises itself as a women's spa is not literally hypocrisy in any sense.

Simply some transgender woman don't have the means, time, finance, or even inclination to have surgery. But if you ban them from women's only places (regardless of nudity) you're essentially saying they are not women. You're denying them the right to be who they are. Then is there any wonder why so many transgender people feel out of place, depressed, addicted or suicidal? I get the argument, I just think the compassion is missing.


I think some people assume this is what's going to happen:


But really it's closer to us guys having to deal with old man dong in the lockerroom, except they may experience it only once or twice in their life if at all.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I think they can understand why a woman might be uncomfortable with a penis around. Hell, want to take a guess who's probably most uncomfortable with that penis considering who's going to have it surgically removed?


Identifying as a woman and wanting to go to a spa that advertises itself as a women's spa is not literally hypocrisy in any sense.

Simply some transgender woman don't have the means, time, finance, or even inclination to have surgery. But if you ban them from women's only places (regardless of nudity) you're essentially saying they are not women. You're denying them the right to be who they are. Then is there any wonder why so many transgender people feel out of place, depressed, addicted or suicidal? I get the argument, I just think the compassion is missing.


I think some people assume this is what's going to happen:


But really it's closer to us guys having to deal with old man dong in the lockerroom, except they may experience it only once or twice in their life if at all.

The hypocrazy is not respecting the women who feel this is uncomfortable. Do you think the business made this decision because ever patron wanted a penis around or because women in a nude spa don't want a penis around?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The hypocrazy is not respecting the women who feel this is uncomfortable. Do you think the business made this decision because ever patron wanted a penis around or because women in a nude spa don't want a penis around?

And again, there was a huge demand for whites only pools just a short time ago. There probably still would be if it was legal. White people were uncomfortable sharing the pool with black people. So I'm not sure why "uncomfortable" or "business decisions" matter in terms of equality.

It wasn't hypocrisy then to want to be able to go to the same pool and be treated the same way. It's not hypocrisy now for them to want to be treated as a woman, you know what they identify as. But I guess if you feel the need to insult them, have at it.

I'd just like you to take two seconds to have some empathy for them. Imagine being born a male, believing you are a woman. Society treats you like ####, you're afraid to come out at all. You finally do, you've battled depression and suicidal thoughts all your life and you just want to go to a spa with another woman friend and you get turned away because you're not a real woman. I'm sorry if I have more comparison for that person than some imaginary customer that may or may not even have a problem with getting a glimpse of penis.

And all the "but what if your daughter" blah blah blah being ####ted out in other posts by other posters. What if your daughter killed herself because some jackasses didn't think she should be allowed to go to a women's only spa because she was born with an appendage that she didn't want? That's the likelier situation here...by far.

It's easy to teach a child that some women have dicks, it's not easy to teach a child why society will not accept them.

[GGG]

Is there a large ground saying don't allow her in though?

I think the general consensus on the No Penis side is that a reasonable accommodation on both sides would be not to let it hang out. This is the same as the change room discussion use a stall the issue disappears.

You have not made a case at all for why this accommodation isn't reasonable regardless of people's constitutional rights.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The hypocrazy is not respecting the women who feel this is uncomfortable. Do you think the business made this decision because ever patron wanted a penis around or because women in a nude spa don't want a penis around?

I don't think people representing either side of this argument are doing justice the actual amount of complexity involved, as there seems to be a strong lack of nuance in either position.

That said, your post raises a question: For what reason do these women (apparently) not want a penis around? I could see it being less of a transgender issue and more of a representation of north america's painfully conservative views on nudity and the human body, but if so, is that really worth protecting? Should we not be striving for an open, liberal culture, and one where the human body is recognised and respected in any form? Not sexualised or seen as a source of deep shame? Is that really worth defending?

A transgender woman is a woman, and while a pre-op body may not fully match this description, to what significance in this whole equation is a penis?

What is the fundamental reason for "women's only" spa? It seems like we haven't even defined the reason, and still people are defending it.