Explosion at Ariana Grande Concert in England

[AltaGuy]

There's definitely a problem within Islam. But, let's not forget we're speaking of a population of about 1.3B people here - the extremist blow-yourself-up proportion of that is pretty miniscule.

I would place a massive amount of blame on the Saudis. Most extremist groups in other religions don't have backers with billions of dollars of disposable income and carte blanche from every major power.

True, there are Shia extremists as well - but the history of that stream of Islam is its own mess.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

There's definitely a problem within Islam. But, let's not forget we're speaking of a population of about 1.3B people here - the extremist blow-youself-up proportion of that is pretty miniscule.

Tiny. But there is of course the larger circle of extreme conservative Islam, of the sort that proposes the death penalty for blasphemy in Pakistan, or the execution of homosexuals, the political leaders who openly advocate for the death of jews, the Imams who indoctrinate youth with extremist notions, or the people who honour and bring gifts to the family of "martyrs" who carry out these attacks. The problem is larger than just the people who are willing to carry out the violence. There is a whole cultural support system there that fosters these narratives, leading to radicalization, plus, if you're certain that you'll go on to paradise and your family will be treated well after you're gone, death in service of the cause seems far more appealing.

Of course, even that is a small minority of 1.3 billion Muslims, but it's not exactly miniscule, and is worthy of concern. Not out of fear of attacks like this one primarily, so much as the millions of oppressed people in those societies. But if you are worried about nail bombs of this sort, and want to understand how the problem gets solved might as well be clear about the gestation process for the sort of person who would do this.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

There's definitely a problem within Islam. But, let's not forget we're speaking of a population of about 1.3B people here - the extremist blow-yourself-up proportion of that is pretty miniscule.

I would place a massive amount of blame on the Saudis. Most extremist groups in other religions don't have backers with billions of dollars of disposable income and carte blanche from every major power.

True, there are Shia extremists as well - but the history of that stream of Islam is its own mess.

There is not a problem with Islam. There is a problem with radicals who think that Islam has advanced too far and want the West to hate normal practicing Islams forcing them to go back to how it was.

ISIS wants to divide the world.

[Yasa]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Latin America has been destabilized and poor throughout most of its history but there's no Chileans committing terror acts.

Are you talking about Chilean or Central American terrorists committing acts of terrorism outside of their respective countries? If not, then Chile for example has a long history of terrorism including a subway bombing in 2014 by an anarchist group. The Puerto Rican independence group FALN committed several terrorist attacks in the US during the 70s and 80s.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

2) How does it explain that everywhere Islamic societies borders with non-Islamic societies we have radicalized violence? Not only in the Middle East, but in Nigeria, Chad, Kenya, India, China, Indonesia, and the Philippines? Why aren't the Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists in those regions blowing themselves up and slaughtering civilians?

There's a lot of nuance here. There are Christian terrorist groups in these countries; the Ilaga in the Philippines, the Anti-Balaka in the Central African Republic, the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India, the NSCN in India and Burma. There is a Hindu extremist group in India, Abhinav Bharat, responsible for the Malegaon bombings in 2006. The SPCD in Burma encouraged violence in the name of Buddhism, and similar instances in South East Thailand in response to Islamic separatists

My point isn't that current Islamic terrorism should get a free pass because other terrorism happens too, but rather that each group/tribe/belief will have a population of extremists and it's not helpful to simplify their motives while attributing their actions to the entire population of those groups.

Globally popular terrorism ideologies change through time. Today it's Islamic. Almost 1000 years ago it was Catholic. Regionally, these ideas vary. Who's to say what it'll be next.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Yasa

There's a lot of nuance here. There are Christian terrorist groups in these countries; the Ilaga in the Philippines, the Anti-Balaka in the Central African Republic, the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India, the NSCN in India and Burma. There is a Hindu extremist group in India, Abhinav Bharat, responsible for the Malegaon bombings in 2006. The SPCD in Burma encouraged violence in the name of Buddhism, and similar instances in South East Thailand in response to Islamic separatists

Shall we compare the number of civilians killed in the last 30 years by the Ilaga versus Abu Sayyaf and the Moror Islamic Liberation Front? By the National Liberation Front of Tipura and their Muslim counterparts like Lashkar-e-Taiba?

Nobody is claiming radical Islamicists are the only people who commit terrorist acts. But it's an enormous leap of sophistry from "Muslim groups aren't the only ones committing mass terror attacks" to "Islam is no different when it comes to terrorism today than any other religion."

Originally Posted by Yasa

My point isn't that current Islamic terrorism should get a free pass because other terrorism happens too, but rather that each group/tribe/belief will have a population of extremists and it's not helpful to simplify their motives while attributing their actions to the entire population of those groups.

Who's attributing the actions to an entire population? It's a Venn diagram

Circle: Alienated young men.
Circle: Islam.

Where those circles overlap, you have the most fertile recruiting ground for violent terrorism in the world today.

Originally Posted by Yasa

Globally popular terrorism ideologies change through time. Today it's Islamic. Almost 1000 years ago it was Catholic. Regionally, these ideas vary. Who's to say what it'll be next.

True. But right now it's radical Islam. What's to be gained by pretending religion plays no role in this? The fact bigots can use it as an excuse for their racism doesn't mean it's not true.

As Corsi points out, their motivations are clear. They repeat those motivations over and over. Can anyone name another terrorist movement in history where we refused to believe that the stated agenda of the terrorists was really the agenda of the terrorists?

[robaur]

If Saddam Hussein was alive and in power, ISIS wouldn't exist.

Is that a fair statement? I'm asking for opinion from people with more knowledge.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by robaur

If Saddam Hussein was alive and in power, ISIS wouldn't exist.

Is that a fair statement? I'm asking for opinion from people with more knowledge.

I don't know if I can say that for sure.

If Saddam had stayed in power and America hadn't fought the second Gulf War, would the Muslim States have been ok with leaving him in power, would Iran?

[Yasa]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

True. But right now it's radical Islam. What's to be gained by pretending religion plays no role in this? The fact bigots can use it as an excuse for their racism doesn't mean it's not true.

As Corsi points out, their motivations are clear. They repeat those motivations over and over. Can anyone name another terrorist movement in history where we refused to believe that the stated agenda of the terrorists was really the agenda of the terrorists?

That's fair. I should have put a bit more thought into my post before hitting submit. I guess my frustrations come from hearing about how Islam is the scourge of the Earth, and the only solution is to obliterate it (general statement, I'm not implying you've said this.) It gets boiled down into a black and white situation where no Islam = no terrorism = world peace. There's so much more to the problem and solution, and I have no idea where to begin.

Edit: I also may have strawmanned you unintentionally in my first post there, so I'm sorry for that

[CroFlames]

Has it been confirmed at all that this was islamic terror? It's got all the hallmarks, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was some British white supremacist group or something.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Has it been confirmed at all that this was islamic terror? It's got all the hallmarks, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was some British white supremacist group or something.

I thought ISIS claimed responsibility.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Tiny. But there is of course the larger circle of extreme conservative Islam, of the sort that proposes the death penalty for blasphemy in Pakistan, or the execution of homosexuals, the political leaders who openly advocate for the death of jews, the Imams who indoctrinate youth with extremist notions, or the people who honour and bring gifts to the family of "martyrs" who carry out these attacks. The problem is larger than just the people who are willing to carry out the violence. There is a whole cultural support system there that fosters these narratives, leading to radicalization, plus, if you're certain that you'll go on to paradise and your family will be treated well after you're gone, death in service of the cause seems far more appealing.

Of course, even that is a small minority of 1.3 billion Muslims, but it's not exactly miniscule, and is worthy of concern. Not out of fear of attacks like this one primarily, so much as the millions of oppressed people in those societies. But if you are worried about nail bombs of this sort, and want to understand how the problem gets solved might as well be clear about the gestation process for the sort of person who would do this.

The role of an insulating community can not be disregarded. Look at the vancouver riots, it was only a handful of troublemakers, but if they hadn't been insulated by of thousands of sympathizers, their antics would have been shut down inside of an hour.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

^ Er, I'm not sure you really want to analogize raping women daily and burning people alive in cages to a couple of broken storefront windows.

Originally Posted by Weitz

I thought ISIS claimed responsibility.

That's not a guarantee though.

I was worried about the same thing, that the momentum of the conversation may have put the cart in front of the horse, but it does seem like the accepted view that this was ISIS-inspired. We could still be proven wrong.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I thought ISIS claimed responsibility.

ISIS' "News Agency" took credit for it.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This article, now a few years old, is also pretty much required reading on the topic: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-wants/384980/

From the article:

There is a temptation to rehearse this observation—that jihadists are modern secular people, with modern political concerns, wearing medieval religious disguise—and make it fit the Islamic State. In fact, much of what the group does looks nonsensical except in light of a sincere, carefully considered commitment to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.

The refusal to recognize the religious motivations of Islamic radicalism is a failure of imagination on the part of secular Westerners. It's so difficult to put ourselves in the shoes of someone who believes in holy war, divinely-inspired scripture, and paradise, that we look for alternative explanations.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I wouldn't be shocked if it was some British white supremacist group or something.

What makes you think that? What motive would they have?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Yasa

I guess my frustrations come from hearing about how Islam is the scourge of the Earth, and the only solution is to obliterate it (general statement, I'm not implying you've said this.)

Yes, there's a lot of that going around. The best answer to that kind of bigotry is to point out that most targets of radical Islamic violence are other Muslims.

[transplant99]

Putting faces to the number of dead.

8 year old Saffie Rose Roussos.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by ToewsFan

Young men that are disenfranchised, pissed off at the world, and have too much testosterone, will be vulnerable to this type of propaganda.

How are people blaming the West for this attack? Insane.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Yasa

Are you talking about Chilean or Central American terrorists committing acts of terrorism outside of their respective countries? If not, then Chile for example has a long history of terrorism including a subway bombing in 2014 by an anarchist group. The Puerto Rican independence group FALN committed several terrorist attacks in the US during the 70s and 80s.



There's a lot of nuance here. There are Christian terrorist groups in these countries; the Ilaga in the Philippines, the Anti-Balaka in the Central African Republic, the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India, the NSCN in India and Burma. There is a Hindu extremist group in India, Abhinav Bharat, responsible for the Malegaon bombings in 2006. The SPCD in Burma encouraged violence in the name of Buddhism, and similar instances in South East Thailand in response to Islamic separatists

My point isn't that current Islamic terrorism should get a free pass because other terrorism happens too, but rather that each group/tribe/belief will have a population of extremists and it's not helpful to simplify their motives while attributing their actions to the entire population of those groups.

Globally popular terrorism ideologies change through time. Today it's Islamic. Almost 1000 years ago it was Catholic. Regionally, these ideas vary. Who's to say what it'll be next.

This post is totally pointless. You can't obfuscate the issue by pointing to historical and global examples. That isn't the issue here.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

What a surprise.......

It's not racist to acknowledge that literally the only people who strap a bomb filled with nails and screws to themselves to attack soft targets in the West are radicalized muslims.

Last I checked Islam isn't a race and criticizing of religions is open game.