What could Wideman fetch us at the deadline?

[CliffFletcher]

Modin cost a 7th rounder. Factor in defence being more valuable than wingers, and up that to a 5th rounder.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

This thread is interesting. Makes me think things:

- Wideman has little to no trade value at this point, if he did he'd have been moved by now (although we don't know what role Wideman could be playing in that).
- If Wideman is ever going to have any trade value, it will likely be at the deadline this year, as his contract becomes less of a factor.
- Despite what seems to be popular belief on here, Wideman is not addition by subtraction for this team (unless potentially you subscribe to Widemangate, but even then, there is no assurance the Widemangate ends if we get rid of Wideman). He is better then every D-man on this team not named Brodie, Hamilton and Gio. Maybe you could argue Engelland is better at elements of the game, but that's it. Doesn't mean he's a good top 4 D man, or worth his contract, but it does mean the Flames don't get better just by getting rid of him.
- Given his contract is up at the end of the year, there is no impetus just to get rid of him....unless doing so would free up needed space this year to pull of a deal we'd like for the playoff push

So, for the Flames, there really is no urgency to trade Wideman if we are going to be buyers and make a push. The goal should actually be to try and push Wideman down the line up. Unless, the only way we can fit an upgrade into the cap is by moving some of his salary too.

If we are going to be sellers. Then we should trade him for whatever the best offer is (if any) including any amount of retained salary needed to get it done. We'd have to pay him any way, so just get whatever asset you could out of him given he will gone next year anyway.

[The Original FFIV]

Along the lines of us looking for a C, wonder if there would be any possibility of a wideman for fillipula swap? Yes, fillipula had an extra year on his deal but if yzerman and treliving get creative and each eat 50% of their respective players deals, then we would have fillipula at under $3m for next year.

All premises on us having interest in fillipula and him waiving his ntc but might be a way to get. A serviceable centre on the cheap

[neo45]

Do the advanced stats show the 2-on-1 he gives up every game?

[WesternCanadaKing]

He could fetch a third at the best I would think, which I'd be super happy with - more likely would be a 4th. He doesn't have much value, but its not a huge risk for a team looking for an extra offensive edge on the backend since we'd retain salary, and a change of scenery might bring out a better player in him.

I couldn't disagree more that getting rid of him isn't addition by subtraction. Honestly, the guy is a curse and is the worst skating dman on the team. The Henderson check has hung over us like a penalty filled cloud for the last year. I'm not saying there's a conspiracy, but its perfectly valid to think that the refs get a bad taste in their mouth when they see him, and would be less inclined to give us the benefit of the doubt consciously or not. Getting rid of him will have a result that's greater than the sum of the parts IMO.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by neo45

Do the advanced stats show the 2-on-1 he gives up every game?

One less than Hamilton last game.

[Beninho]

Not a god damn thing, unless the Flames are taking another terrible contract. In all likely hood we have to ride out our time with Wideman. Was a terrible contract the day he signed it but thank god this is the last year I'll have to see his ass plastered on the boards on every dump in. I don't hate Wideman but he's been flat out awful for 2 seasons now without the whole ref situation.

[powderjunkie]

I think Wideman's value is most impacted by the market of available UFA d-men. The ref effect and his questionable play (I'm not as down on him as most, as I think most people are suffering from sever confirmation bias) certainly make him less attractive than many others:

Streit
Kulikov
Shattenkirk
Stone
Del Zotto
Oduya
Franson
Russell (after the Oilers lose their next 8 games)
Engelland
Hainsey
Brendan Smith
Kindl
Polak
Nick Schultz
Tyutin
Liles
Quincey
Hunwick
Seidenberg


Most of these guys are on sellers, and the rest bubble teams (who, like Calgary, are unlikely to see this player as the difference between an extended run or not). Also, every one of these players has a lower cap hit and actual salary.

I'm not sure if this list is longer than most years (thought it feels like it probably is) - it's just not a great year to be trying to trade him

[Flamefan1]

Getting rid of Wideman is definitely addition by subtraction. I honestly believe having him in the lineup could be the difference in the Falmes not making the playoffs. And no he is not our 4th best defenseman. In our playoff run Wotherspoon played a regular shift and played well. If we actually give Kulak and Wotherspoon a chance to play more than 1 game in every 5 they will show the coaching staff that they deserve to be playing. Should play have two of Joki, Wotherspoon and Kulak in the lineup every night which means Widedog is on the farm or traded (likely 0 market or if there is return is a 7th rounder or a very borderline prospect).

[Calgary4LIfe]

I think that a number of teams that are looking for right-shot defenceman are playing the waiting game for the specific guys that they are targeting, and that Wideman is plan c or do. At the deadline, teams will be more desperate, and Wideman's cap hit will be more palatable, and it wouldn't surprise me to see even a 2nd round pick being the return. Wideman has to start playing like he was for most of the season though, rather than how he has been lately.

Defencemen are always worth a premium, especially right handers with PP ability.

I know Friedman stated that the Flames have been trying to trade him all season, but I am not sure that I buy it. None of Jokipakka, Kulak, and Wotherspoon seem able to play the bottom-pairing with any consistency. There seems to be a big hole at the number 4 spot for Calgary's blueline that they can't seem able to fill internally this season. Moving Engelland up is the only way to solidify the top 4, but then leaves the bottom pair fairly exposed, even with line matching and reduced minutes. The bottom pair has to be decent enough to allow the top 4 to rest, especially in the back-half of the season. Moving Engelland up makes it more difficult for Gulutzan to line match.

It may not be worth trading away Wideman for a low round pick - 5th or lower? - and end up with 2 raw defencemen on that bottom pairing.

Also, for anyone arguing about the Wideman effect in terms of reffing, I don't think it matters much if Wideman is on the team or not if you subscribe to the notion that the Flames are being unfairly penalized during games. The Flames stuck up for Wideman last season, and that is what the refs remember. It will take a few seasons post-Wideman for the refs to forget, IF indeed there exists some conspiracy. Refs aren't going to let the Flames off the hook simply because they turned Wideman into assets to help themselves.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I think that a number of teams that are looking for right-shot defenceman are playing the waiting game for the specific guys that they are targeting, and that Wideman is plan c or do. At the deadline, teams will be more desperate, and Wideman's cap hit will be more palatable, and it wouldn't surprise me to see even a 2nd round pick being the return. Wideman has to start playing like he was for most of the season though, rather than how he has been lately.

Defencemen are always worth a premium, especially right handers with PP ability.

I know Friedman stated that the Flames have been trying to trade him all season, but I am not sure that I buy it. None of Jokipakka, Kulak, and Wotherspoon seem able to play the bottom-pairing with any consistency. There seems to be a big hole at the number 4 spot for Calgary's blueline that they can't seem able to fill internally this season. Moving Engelland up is the only way to solidify the top 4, but then leaves the bottom pair fairly exposed, even with line matching and reduced minutes. The bottom pair has to be decent enough to allow the top 4 to rest, especially in the back-half of the season. Moving Engelland up makes it more difficult for Gulutzan to line match.

It may not be worth trading away Wideman for a low round pick - 5th or lower? - and end up with 2 raw defencemen on that bottom pairing.

Also, for anyone arguing about the Wideman effect in terms of reffing, I don't think it matters much if Wideman is on the team or not if you subscribe to the notion that the Flames are being unfairly penalized during games. The Flames stuck up for Wideman last season, and that is what the refs remember. It will take a few seasons post-Wideman for the refs to forget, IF indeed there exists some conspiracy. Refs aren't going to let the Flames off the hook simply because they turned Wideman into assets to help themselves.

I liked what Rhett Warrener said on the fan in going with the kids on d. It is much more palatable to accept mistakes from kids than it is from a vet. In that sense take what you can get for wideman and see what you have in Kulak and wotherspoon. We are not winning the cup this year and while I would like us to make the playoffs, I don't see wideman being the deciding factor and from an organizational standpoint, we need to know what we have in these players and whether they deserve another contract or we move on and find better bottom pairing d via trade, free agency or internally.

[Flamefan1]

Exactly my sentiments. Play Kulak and Wotherspoon and totally take Wideman off team. We will know what we have at the end of the season and I personally think it will be a lot more than if we keep Wideman in the lineup. Almost impossible for the young guys to make more mistakes, take more stupid penalties, or to mKe dumber plays than Wideman. He is not an NHL player anymore and I don't get why Gully and Brad are risking their careers by continuing to play him. I am a season ticket holder and I cringe everytime he is on the ice. He is depressing.

[tfi racing]

They could park him the rest of the season,but that would guarantee that they receive absolutely nothing for what they are paying him now and zero chance of anything at the deadline. Wideman is only one small part of the team making the playoffs or not,there is a slim chance someone is desperate enough for help near the end of the month that an offer could be made,why else would he still be playing...

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

I liked what Rhett Warrener said on the fan in going with the kids on d. It is much more palatable to accept mistakes from kids than it is from a vet. In that sense take what you can get for wideman and see what you have in Kulak and wotherspoon. We are not winning the cup this year and while I would like us to make the playoffs, I don't see wideman being the deciding factor and from an organizational standpoint, we need to know what we have in these players and whether they deserve another contract or we move on and find better bottom pairing d via trade, free agency or internally.

Who wants Wideman? I'd say Treliving has been trying to trade Wideman for the last year with no takers. I think it's known around the league that the refs are punishing the Flames for what Wideman did. Who would want that going against their team?

#WidemanEffect

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by Flamefan1

Bidding war. Are you joking? A bidding war for quite likely the worst skater in the NHL and one of the worst defensemen in the league. Not happening.

Hyperbole in full effect in this thread.

[Firebot]

Kulak, Wotherspoon and Jokipakka are not good enough right now to jump in the #4 spot. I am also not confident in having 2 of them together as a bottom pairing if Engelland was to take #4 (also bad).

Wideman is not getting traded. He is still better than all 3 of those despite his shortcomings, and has better value for the Flames than his non existant trade value.

Flames would have to be in a tailspin and out of a playoff spot similar to last year's situation for that to happen.

[foshizzle11]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Kulak, Wotherspoon and Jokipakka are not good enough right now to jump in the #4 spot. I am also not confident in having 2 of them together as a bottom pairing if Engelland was to take #4 (also bad).

Wideman is not getting traded. He is still better than all 3 of those despite his shortcomings, and has better value for the Flames than his non existant trade value.

Flames would have to be in a tailspin and out of a playoff spot similar to last year's situation for that to happen.

I don't agree with this at all. At least the young guys would have a chance to learn from their mistakes and potentially improve. Wideman is hard to watch, every shift I think he will mess it up and the other team will score. If Treliving could trade him, he would have been gone long ago. Nobody wants him because he is bad.

I wouldn't have an issue slotting in Kevin, Wotherspoon or Kulak with Brodie on the 2nd pairing. Mix it around game by game until a pair sticks. Then play the next best with Engelland on the bottom pair.

Could any of those three be worse playing with Brodie? I don't think so. He is slow, he can't play D, he gives the puck away constantly. His negatives out way his positives right now.

[Jay Random]

Every contending team wants extra depth on defence. The minute a contender suffers a serious injury on D (and the want turns into an urgent need), look for Wideman to be in play. He may not fetch much of a price, but he'll be in play.

To a contender, he would be a useful temporary patch for a blown tire.

[Flamefan1]

Originally Posted by foshizzle11

I don't agree with this at all. At least the young guys would have a chance to learn from their mistakes and potentially improve. Wideman is hard to watch, every shift I think he will mess it up and the other team will score. If Treliving could trade him, he would have been gone long ago. Nobody wants him because he is bad.

I wouldn't have an issue slotting in Kevin, Wotherspoon or Kulak with Brodie on the 2nd pairing. Mix it around game by game until a pair sticks. Then play the next best with Engelland on the bottom pair.

Could any of those three be worse playing with Brodie? I don't think so. He is slow, he can't play D, he gives the puck away constantly. His negatives out way his positives right now.

Great post , exactly my sentiments. How do we know how Kulak and Worherspoon will do when we play them one game then sit them. Wotherspoon played well in playoffs 2 years ago. Someone just commented Wideman played well earlier in the season. He along with the other Man were a major part of our first two losses of the season.

[Flamefan1]

Wideman looked like his normal scary self again last night. Why is this guy not benched. Give the young guys a chance. They cannot make more mistakes than this guy.