Alberta introduces new bill to increase vaccination rates for children

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Herd immunity. Look it up.

It's not about you.

This would be relevant if I was anti-vaxx, or didn't already firmly believe in herd immunity.

We're talking about allowing a minority. The herd is immune even with a minority who aren't, and my goal is to use education to further reduce those who are part of the minority by choice.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I still support the claim, 100%. It's the basis of my entire argument. Does that mean that exceptions for just cause make me a hypocrite? If it does, so be it, but that's how the world works. Nothing is completely black and white.

Why are vaccines not "just cause" though in your opinion? I'm sure you agree that they prevent deaths and other terrible conditions, so what do they need to do to become a just cause? Let's say we could simulate a Canada with and without forced vaccines, how many more preventable deaths would the Canada without forced vaccines require before it became "just." Is there a number?

And no, I do not believe government should have forced sterilization or abortions and gay men should not be castrated so now that's out of the way...

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This would be relevant if I was anti-vaxx, or didn't already firmly believe in herd immunity.

We're talking about allowing a minority. The herd is immune even with a minority who aren't, and my goal is to use education to further reduce those who are part of the minority by choice.

But that minority isn't all by choice, that's why we need herd immunity.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Why are vaccines not "just cause" though in your opinion? I'm sure you agree that they prevent deaths and other terrible conditions, so what do they need to do to become a just cause? Let's say we could simulate a Canada with and without forced vaccines, how many more preventable deaths would the Canada without forced vaccines require before it became "just." Is there a number?

And no, I do not believe government should have forced sterilization or abortions and gay men should not be castrated so now that's out of the way...

Because we don't need 100% vaccination rate to reap the benefits of herd immunity. It certainly needs to be high, but I feel proper and (ideally) mandatory education programs would be effective in getting to (and staying at) the required number.

Educating the population would be more effective cost-wise and raises less questions than mandated medical treatments for every person. I don't even think you've even thought to ask half the questions you should be asking before allowing that type of widespread government control. Governments are both largely flawed and always changing.

You didn't answer my question. The question was "Are you anti-abortion?" or "Do you believe abortion should be illegal?"

Because in my mind, if your line is child protection and you're as unfriendly to exceptions and grey areas as you are, you absolutely have to be. So are you?

Just trying to "define your line" so that I can navigate it.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I see you're conveniently avoiding my question.



Should be simple. Your line is child endangerment. Anti-abortion, yes or no.

Interestingly, I'm morally anti-abortion. Sure I think there are moral justifications for abortions (rape, incest, severe disability etc...) but by and large I can get onside with the moral argument that it is terminating the life of an "innocent" child.

However, there is not a single part of me that believes abortions, even late term, should be illegal because the state shouldn't have the right to dictate what a person does and does not do with their own person.

In this example you have an actual living person and a "probable" person and you have to weigh one against the other.

Similarly, I find anti-vaxxers ill-informed and a menace to society, but I'm not prepared to jail them for that position.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

But that minority isn't all by choice, that's why we need herd immunity.

We do. For sure. Herd immunity is a big positive. And we've had it for so many decades. Without the need for draconian government intervention. And now, we have outbreaks of a few old, nasty diseases. Immunization is back up - not to where it was, but it's getting there. Education is working. Why now force individuals? This step by the NDP government is exactly the right one. Increase pressure, increase vaccinations, but do not strip individuals of their fundamental rights. Why is this "Not enough"? Why the requirement to invade people's bodies? Why the need to force drugs on someone?

You've taken a position based on certainty and absolutism. It isn't even required in order to get that "herd immunity" you were talking about. The outbreaks have been localized, and yeah, ####ty, but they have been contained, and the situation appears to be resolving itself. Through education. I might have been swayed if herd immunity required 99.9% of all individuals to be vaccinated, or that the results were graver than they were. If things continue to slide, then perhaps look at other measures. But as of now, I mean, it's not even necessary.

And it's also counterproductive. We would all be (pretty much) arguing "Yeah, vaccines are great! We should have more! Go medicine! But now I'm in a position where I have to speak up against some pretty draconian and dangerous ideas. I'm against forcing, not against medicine. Besides, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. You can convince people to change their minds. That's how everyone here has arrived to their opinion.

[CliffFletcher]

The tricky thing about vaccinations is you're not only putting your own kids at risk, but kids who are still too young to be vaccinated, and others who have legitimate medical reasons why they can't be vaccinated.

Still not sure I'd be onboard with making it mandatory. I would like to see it mandatory to enroll in public school, though.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Interestingly, I'm morally anti-abortion. Sure I think there are moral justifications for abortions (rape, incest, severe disability etc...) but by and large I can get onside with the moral argument that it is terminating the life of an "innocent" child.

However, there is not a single part of me that believes abortions, even late term, should be illegal because the state shouldn't have the right to dictate what a person does and does not do with their own person.

In this example you have an actual living person and a "probable" person and you have to weigh one against the other.

Similarly, I find anti-vaxxers ill-informed and a menace to society, but I'm not prepared to jail them for that position.

Interestingly, I think those late-term abortions not done for medical reasons could also be reduced significantly through education - the number of families on the adoption waiting list is huge.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Knalus

We do. For sure. Herd immunity is a big positive. And we've had it for so many decades. Without the need for draconian government intervention. And now, we have outbreaks of a few old, nasty diseases. Immunization is back up - not to where it was, but it's getting there. Education is working. Why now force individuals? This step by the NDP government is exactly the right one. Increase pressure, increase vaccinations, but do not strip individuals of their fundamental rights. Why is this "Not enough"? Why the requirement to invade people's bodies? Why the need to force drugs on someone?

Because there's children like Ezekiel Stephan still dying because they didn't receive a vaccine due to the choice of their parents.

Or 10 month old babies with cancer that are getting measles because they are subjected to it from other people who didn't receive the vaccine.

It's small comfort to me that statistically it's still rare to contact meningitis when there are still innocent children dying from it. It's not fear-mongering, it happens far too often and is preventable.