At least 84 killed in terrorist attack in Nice, France

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Buster

The Middle East?

The main problem (if you can distill it down to that), is that mainstream Islam is not nearly as troubled with these events as we are. The message out of this atrocity from the Muslim community will be to condemn "Islamophobia" - that will be the primary concern of the Muslim world. Just like Charlie Hebdo. Just like Orlando. Just like 9-11.

People feel that the only way for this to end is Islamic moderates to finally have their voice heard. The problem is that Islamic moderates are not moderate in the way we think they are. An Islamic moderate is still way far to the extremist than they are to sharing secular/liberal/western views.

We know this from well regarded poll results from organizations like Pew and ICM.

What a simpleton's and/or ignoramus' analysis of the issue. The Muslims in Turkey and Baghdad who were recent victims of similar attacks were condemning the same criminals.

Such a facile understanding.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

What a simpleton's and/or ignoramus' analysis of the issue. The Muslims in Turkey and Baghdad who were recent victims of similar attacks were condemning the same criminals.

Such a facile understanding.

Sure those in Ankana, Istanbul, Baghdad, Nice, Paris, etc are victims and many Muslims are victims, but I'll let you guess what the one common theme between all those attacks is

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

What a simpleton's and/or ignoramus' analysis of the issue. The Muslims in Turkey and Baghdad who were recent victims of similar attacks were condemning the same criminals.

Such a facile understanding.

more muslims have been killed by Isis than westerners, that's absolutely true...

we just have a more visceral reaction because we can identify with other western democracies...

An Isil truck bomb killed 200 in Bagdad just and the end of the Muslim holy month Ramandan, just as families were preparing to celebrate Eid, which marks the end of the fast.... So, the notion that its "us versus them" is a very superficial reading of what Isil is all about.

Now, i will say that France, much more than any western democracy, has been targeted...so there may be some underlying societal issues there...

but make no mistake, Isil goes after other muslims more often than western targets.

[Buster]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

What a simpleton's and/or ignoramus' analysis of the issue. The Muslims in Turkey and Baghdad who were recent victims of similar attacks were condemning the same criminals.

Such a facile understanding.

You are taking the wrong approach to the problem. We have to identify the source of the problem....the motivation for hate and intolerance.

The TARGET of a hate crime or terrorism is much instructive than the motivation for the terrorism.

One of the biggest problem in the world of Islam right now is LGBT rights. Should we obscure the fact that Islam is the motivation when gays get thrown off a roof in Iran, just because the gay person is a Muslim?

When a Muslim dies due to Islamic ideology, they are no less a victim of the ideology.

Personally, I think this argument is shameful.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Buster

You are taking the wrong approach to the problem. We have to identify the source of the problem....the motivation for hate and intolerance.

The TARGET of a hate crime or terrorism is much instructive than the motivation for the terrorism.

One of the biggest problem in the world of Islam right now is LGBT rights. Should we obscure the fact that Islam is the motivation when gays get thrown off a roof in Iran, just because the gay person is a Muslim?

When a Muslim dies due to Islamic ideology, they are no less a victim of the ideology.

Personally, I think this argument is shameful.

So are you intimating moderate Muslims and not extremists are doing these crimes?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Or condoning them?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Yes it matters where they came from

Yes you can reduce immigration/refugee claims from those areas

Yes you can reduce visa applications/approvals from those areas.

Enough radical Islamic terrorism already.

You can reduce immigration from those areas, but it'll do nothing other than reduce immigration from those countries.

The people carrying out these attacks aren't immigrants

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

but make no mistake, Isil goes after other muslims more often than western targets.

Hey don't worry guys its cool, Muslim terrorists kill Muslims more than others. So its totally okay as long as the +/- ends up higher on the self-inflicted kills its acceptable.

Such a garbage argument. I don't care if it is 100% muslim death toll, same thing applies

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

You can reduce immigration from those areas, but it'll do nothing other than reduce immigration from those countries.

The people carrying out these attacks aren't immigrants

You know the attack tonight was a Tunisian immigrant to France, right?

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Hey don't worry guys its cool, Muslim terrorists kill Muslims more than others. So its totally okay as long as the +/- ends up higher on the self-inflicted kills its acceptable.

Such a garbage argument. I don't care if it is 100% muslim death toll, same thing applies

who said it was ok?

The point was that it's not a case of radical islamics or Isil only (note that word) targeting westerners... i realize that its easier to reduce the conflict to "us versus them", but that's far from the reality...

[Buster]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

So are you intimating moderate Muslims and not extremists are doing these crimes?

I think it is absolutely fair to say the following:

Moderate Islam, or probably better to say "Mainstream Islam", is not an equivalent to what we normally would consider to be "moderate". The baseline for mainstream views in the Islamic community is what we would consider VERY far from moderate in a typical western liberal secular democracy. There is very good data to support this conclusion.

This is the big gap in understanding and where the confusion lies for many western liberals: we assume that the centre line in Muslim communities (even western ones in Britain and the US) is more or less where we are. It's the famous "relativism" that has ended up doing us a disservice by obscuring important differences between the beliefs of western liberal secularists and the world's muslim population. The is a slightly more difficult point to illustrate using extreme examples like the Nice/Orlando/9-11/Charlie Hebdo attacks. It's more easily illustrated when discussing things like LGBT rights, the criminality of homosexuality, and the fact that homosexuality is a capital crime in some Islamic countries. Gay people don't get thrown off of buildings in Islamic countries because a tiny minority takes that approach. But such laws are enforced in an environment where homosexuality is viewed with intolerance by an enormous majority of the population.

In the case of terrorism in western targets, this phenomenon is translated in a different way. So many western people believe (in a bout of generosity, I assumed), that the Muslim population around the world views the events in Nice with the same horror that we would. Given what we know about other comparables (only one of which I cited above), this appears to be a misplaced viewpoint.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Hey don't worry guys its cool, Muslim terrorists kill Muslims more than others. So its totally okay as long as the +/- ends up higher on the self-inflicted kills its acceptable.

Such a garbage argument. I don't care if it is 100% muslim death toll, same thing applies

No one is saying there isn't a problem with jihadists. But the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not jihadists and feel the same outrage. In many cases are victims as well. They object to being lumped in or having the actions of a criminal few somehow represent Muslims as a whole.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

So at what point do governments end their policy of not negotiating with terrorists? Whatever the western nations are doing, it's not working. I know you can't just sit down with ISIS leadership (do they even really have any?) but maybe it's time toget creative.

They don't want to negotiate. ISIS would never sit down with the West, since they consider it their destiny to carve out a Caliphate and then spark a war with the West that leads to the apocalypse.

The only reason why you negotiate with these scum bags is to negotiate them either into a jail cell for their rest of their lives or into the hangman's noose.

The only reason why I would even offer to negotiate is to get all of their leaders into one spot and then drop a tactical nuke on their asses.

[Buster]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

No one is saying there isn't a problem with jihadists. But the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not jihadists and feel the same outrage. In many cases are victims as well. They object to being lumped in or having the actions of a criminal few somehow represent Muslims as a whole.

First bold: accurate statement
Second bold: assumption that is probably not true

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Buster

I think it is absolutely fair to say the following:

Moderate Islam, or probably better to say "Mainstream Islam", is not an equivalent to what we normally would consider to be "moderate". The baseline for mainstream views in the Islamic community is what we would consider VERY far from moderate in a typical western liberal secular democracy. There is very good data to support this conclusion.

This is the big gap in understanding and where the confusion lies for many western liberals: we assume that the centre line in Muslim communities (even western ones in Britain and the US) is more or less where we are. It's the famous "relativism" that has ended up doing us a disservice by obscuring important differences between the beliefs of western liberal secularists and the world's muslim population. The is a slightly more difficult point to illustrate using extreme examples like the Nice/Orlando/9-11/Charlie Hebdo attacks. It's more easily illustrated when discussing things like LGBT rights, the criminality of homosexuality, and the fact that homosexuality is a capital crime in some Islamic countries. Gay people don't get thrown off of buildings in Islamic countries because a tiny minority takes that approach. But such laws are enforced in an environment where homosexuality is viewed with intolerance by an enormous majority of the population.

In the case of terrorism in western targets, this phenomenon is translated in a different way. So many western people believe (in a bout of generosity, I assumed), that the Muslim population around the world views the events in Nice with the same horror that we would. Given what we know about other comparables (only one of which I cited above), this appears to be a misplaced viewpoint.

I don't disagree that social conservatives think differently than liberal secularists especially about LGBT rights.

But given that pew even shows the majority of Muslims hate ISIS where do you get they don't share the horror?

Especially when they are visited with the same type of horror.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

who said it was ok?

The point was that it's not a case of radical islamics or Isil only (note that word) targeting westerners... i realize that its easier to reduce the conflict to "us versus them", but that's far from the reality...

If you don't practice the crazy ideology's like sharia and wahhabism it doesn't matter what religion you follow...your a westerner and should be killed.

More Muslims are dying by the hand of ISIS because they're closer to the action.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Buster

First bold: accurate statement
Second bold: assumption that is probably not true

This your own bias, based on...?
Do you know or talk to any Muslims personally?

[JD]

Originally Posted by Buster

First bold: accurate statement
Second bold: assumption that is probably not true

I might not have "data" to support it, but as someone how lives and works amongst Muslims in a Muslim country, I can absolutely state that they do share our distaste and horror at these incidents.

I agree with some of what you're saying, but you're crossing into the territory of building an us vs. them paradigm. That's not going to help anything. We're all just humans and all want the same basic things.

[corporatejay]

Well it's anecdotal but I consider my Muslim friends "moderate" and they basically do the same stuff as me except skip pork.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by T@T

If you don't practice the crazy ideology's like sharia and wahhabism it doesn't matter what religion you follow...your a westerner and should be killed.

More Muslims are dying by the hand of ISIS because they're closer to the action.

sure, and that makes up what % of muslims?

generalizing to the point of saying Islam is 'bad' or that we need to stop all Muslims from immigrating is casting a mighty wide web that ends up further alienating some muslim youth...its a vicious cycle that plays into the hands of radical jihadis...