Treliving: We would like to add a defenceman

[Krynn]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Wonder if they look to someone like Luke Schenn as a depth pickup?

That's who I was think a couple of days ago.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Hamilton is above Wideman in the depth chart. And Russell too.

Calgary's undisputed top 3 d-men are Gio, Brodie and Hamilton.

You might argue that Hamilton is a more talented D-man and should be top 3 BUT the TOI numbers don't say that that was the case last year:

Brodie 25:16
Gio 24:48
Russell 22:52
Wideman 20:37
Hamilton 19:46

Hamilton had his minutes inflated after Russell and Wideman were out of the lineup:

In the 34 games after the all star game (Russell played 6 games and Wideman only 3)

Gio 25:16
Brodie 25:01
Hamilton 20:46
Engelland 19:29

Hartley trusted Wideman in defense situations and PK more than he did Hamilton .... when Wideman was obviously struggling.

Hamilton has to show a big improvement in play reading in the defensive zone for him to be successful as a top 4 d-man.

PS the only time that Hamilton was above Russell on the depth chart was when started the season paired with Gio and they blew through the confidence of all three goalies. Although at the time Wideman and Russell also looked like they had never played hockey at the NHL level before either.

[Isikiz]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

You might argue that Hamilton is a more talented D-man and should be top 3 BUT the TOI numbers don't say that that was the case last year:

Brodie 25:16
Gio 24:48
Russell 22:52
Wideman 20:37
Hamilton 19:46

Hamilton had his minutes inflated after Russell and Wideman were out of the lineup:

In the 34 games after the all star game (Russell played 6 games and Wideman only 3)

Gio 25:16
Brodie 25:01
Hamilton 20:46
Engelland 19:29

Hartley trusted Wideman in defense situations and PK more than he did Hamilton .... when Wideman was obviously struggling.

Hamilton has to show a big improvement in play reading in the defensive zone for him to be successful as a top 4 d-man.

I'm pretty sure that's just Hartley doing Hartley things though.

[puffnstuff]

Hartley trusting Wideman defensively over Hamilton is probably a big contributing factor to his being let go.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

You might argue that Hamilton is a more talented D-man and should be top 3 BUT the TOI numbers don't say that that was the case last year:

Brodie 25:16
Gio 24:48
Russell 22:52
Wideman 20:37
Hamilton 19:46

Hamilton had his minutes inflated after Russell and Wideman were out of the lineup:

In the 34 games after the all star game (Russell played 6 games and Wideman only 3)

Gio 25:16
Brodie 25:01
Hamilton 20:46
Engelland 19:29

Hartley trusted Wideman in defense situations and PK more than he did Hamilton .... when Wideman was obviously struggling.

Hamilton has to show a big improvement in play reading in the defensive zone for him to be successful as a top 4 d-man.

PS the only time that Hamilton was above Russell on the depth chart was when started the season paired with Gio and they blew through the confidence of all three goalies. Although at the time Wideman and Russell also looked like they had never played hockey at the NHL level before either.

TOI isn't the only factor used to determine who your best 3 d-men are. Nor is it a good indicator. Different coaches will utilize players in different ways, and not necessarily in the correct manner.

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

Hartley trusting Wideman defensively over Hamilton is probably a big contributing factor to his being let go.

Exactly.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

Hartley trusting Wideman defensively over Hamilton is probably a big contributing factor to his being let go.

very well could be. Maybe Hamilton and Hartley had philosophical differences.

Harltey's team had ended up with a bad record and Hamilton ended up with a -14 on a team where the average +/- of regular players (over 42 games) -4.

[CroFlames]

Haha philosophical differences.


The players play; they don't philosophize strategy with the coaching staff.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

TOI isn't the only factor used to determine who your best 3 d-men are. Nor is it a good indicator. Different coaches will utilize players in different ways, and not necessarily in the correct manner.
.

Show me an example from another team where the best 3 d-men are not in the top-3 in TOI.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Show me an example from another team where the best 3 d-men are not in the top-3 in TOI.

Because Hartley

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

Hartley trusting Wideman defensively over Hamilton is probably a big contributing factor to his being let go.

It will be interesting how much PK time Hamilton gets under the new coach. It was hard to believe that Hamilton did not get any PK time :38/game on the worst PK units in the league.



In Boston over his 3 years Hamilton had :46/game on the PK but they had more prototypical PK d-men --- Chara, Boychuck, Siedenberg, McQuaid.

[Enoch Root]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that the ice-time issue will straighten out under the new coach. Why don't we just wait and see?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Show me an example from another team where the best 3 d-men are not in the top-3 in TOI.

Carolina. Edmonton. Arguably Minnie. NYR. Philly. Maybe St. Louis.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

You might argue that Hamilton is a more talented D-man and should be top 3 BUT the TOI numbers don't say that that was the case last year:

Brodie 25:16
Gio 24:48
Russell 22:52
Wideman 20:37
Hamilton 19:46

Hamilton had his minutes inflated after Russell and Wideman were out of the lineup:

In the 34 games after the all star game (Russell played 6 games and Wideman only 3)

Gio 25:16
Brodie 25:01
Hamilton 20:46
Engelland 19:29

Hartley trusted Wideman in defense situations and PK more than he did Hamilton .... when Wideman was obviously struggling.

Hamilton has to show a big improvement in play reading in the defensive zone for him to be successful as a top 4 d-man.

PS the only time that Hamilton was above Russell on the depth chart was when started the season paired with Gio and they blew through the confidence of all three goalies. Although at the time Wideman and Russell also looked like they had never played hockey at the NHL level before either.

So basically you are saying at the beginning of the year when Hamilton was struggling, he didn't get top 3 minutes, but by the end of the year he was getting top 3 minutes.

What is your point?

[Strange Brew]

A lot of people second guessing Hartley's allotment of playing time to Hamilton but I don't think the guy was an idiot. I think Hamilton totally lost his coaches confidence after his start and lack of defensive awareness. Suffice to say GG needs to get more out of Hamilton and his obvious skill for team to be successful.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

very well could be. Maybe Hamilton and Hartley had philosophical differences.

Harltey's team had ended up with a bad record and Hamilton ended up with a -14 on a team where the average +/- of regular players (over 42 games) -4.

Hamilton was already -11 or something like that after 8 or 9 games. We all know he had a horrible start, but improved significantly over the course of the season.

also congrats for turning yet another thread into a Hamilton debate. Unbelievable stuff.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Does Ricardodw ever have a point that makes any sort of sense?

Any thread that has been Hamilton'd by Ricardodw

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

Hartley trusting Wideman defensively over Hamilton is probably a big contributing factor to his being let go.

Well said. The Hartley love for Wideman was baffling. I'd take Hamilton over him every day of week.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

Well said. The Hartley love for Wideman was baffling. I'd take Hamilton over him every day of week.

I take Hamilton over Wideman every day as well, but especially at the beginning, Wideman (as bad as he was) was better defensively.

Anyway, wasn't this thread about adding a D-man? Why are we debating the ones already here?

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I take Hamilton over Wideman every day as well, but especially at the beginning, Wideman (as bad as he was) was better defensively.

Anyway, wasn't this thread about adding a D-man? Why are we debating the ones already here?

Definitely.

[Calgary4LIfe]

The biggest question in all of this is which Wideman shows up this season.

Was it last season's Wideman where he couldn't find a shooting lane to save his life, turned the wrong way at times when pressured by oncoming forwards and had injury/disciplinary issues? Or will it be the Wideman who was arguably the best defencemen in the NHL at finding shooting lanes, was a boon on the rush with great chemistry with Gaudreau, who was a relative stalwart defensively - especially when Giordano went down, and who provided strong leadership?

No major injuries from that year to the next. Yet, it was Jekyll and Hyde. I can see why Hartley was overly-patient with Wideman - he was money on the PP and could be trusted against the top lines in the NHL defensively. It just never happened.

If that Wideman comes back this season, Flames are definitely looking poised for the playoffs (considering all the other moves as well), and his trade value will dramatically increase if the Flames are still inclined to trade him then. If the poor Wideman comes out this year, I would assume he will be a 6th/7th defencemen, in and out of the lineup, and who probably won't be able to be traded.

At this point, Flames don't have anything to lose. If they can trade him for something now, I am sure they will do it. I don't think the Flames will be giving him away, however. They are more likely to keep him around as a depth defencemen and hoping he regains some of his form between that of last season, and the prior season - and that wouldn't be some type of crazy expectation to have, IMO. If Wideman does that for the first 2 months of the season, I would bet the Flames wouldn't have trouble unloading him, or even just decide to keep him as that makes him a decent piece for the season to hold onto.