I just believe there are bigger fish to fry, especially domestically in the US, and those issues are largely ignored because so much of the public conscience is focused on Islamic terrorism.
This is probably true domestically. I think it's definitely the case that the problem is nowhere near as big in the US as it is in Europe, and even there, the damage being caused by this ideology is vastly less than it is in Muslim-majority countries themselves. The biggest victims of Islamism and Jihadism are Muslims, that should go without saying. But that fact too is a reason to care about it. Frankly, most of my interest in this, the reason I care about it, isn't out of fear of getting blown up by a suicide bomber. It's the fact that minorities or oppressed groups in these societies - gays, women, apostates, atheists and secularists, and so forth - are treated abominably and subjected to atrocities up to and including torture and death. That's my main beef here.
Though I do think that the risk is going to continue to ramp up as time goes on. I think we'll probably see more San Bernadinos and Paris shootings as time goes along until the public will is such that it isn't tolerated anymore. My concern is that the way that's going to manifest itself - that is, what's going to happen when the public has "had enough" - is that someone like Trump, or someone much worse, will gain power and influence.
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Originally Posted by Thor
I have been very involved with the ex islam, or islam reformists movements and trying to get those people out to the west where they won't be killed.
There is a long list of these refugees like the leader of the very popular Global Humanist Secular Movement, Faissal
Thor, in your involvement, have you ever talked to or worked with Faisal? He's a fantastic voice on this, in particular supporting the kind of people who reach out to their organization to essentially rescue people from these situations where who they are is out of step with their societies as he talks about here:
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Sohail Ahmed who has been making the rounds on the major cable news networks, a former Islamist who stepped back from the brink, to realize he is gay and is now an agnostic fighting for reformation in Islam. https://www.facebook.com/BritishAgnosticMuslim
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However, from another perspective, based on many of the comments from atheists in this thread and others, how is this any different from ultra-conservative Christian attempts to create therapeutic programs to remove homosexual impulses from gay people? Where do you draw the line?
Haha, what the actual eff? How is helping to remove people who are attempting to speak out against religious extremists from dangerous situations remotely comparable to shaming and abusing people for being gay?
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For the fact Harris calls out constantly the regressive left who dare not name Islam, I love this man.
No one seemed to care when we didn't dare name goths or post office workers after they shot up schools or theatres or the like, why does it make any difference what half arsed whack job philosophy the guy with the AR15 has? it's the fact he has an AR15 that's the problem.
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I actually think a big disconnect between the "regressive left" and Islamic reformers is in largely due to the perceived attack on Muslims in the West and their lack of political or social clout in Western society. The Islamic reformer tend to be speaking out with a more global frame of mind, whereas Western leftists are worried about the possibility of hate crimes and violence against Muslims living in the Western countries as a result of the rhetoric.
If we're talking about a threat to homosexuals and women in the West, then capitalism, Christianity, and uncontrolled access to fierarms pose far greater threats to their rights and well-being than violent jihadists or socially-conservative Muslims. I realize it doesn't have to be an either or debate, but if you're going to allocate resources to a cause, it makes sense to allocate them against the most immediate threats to your cause.
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No one seemed to care when we didn't dare name goths or post office workers after they shot up schools or theatres or the like, why does it make any difference what half arsed whack job philosophy the guy with the AR15 has? it's the fact he has an AR15 that's the problem.
Because one "half arsed" philosophy, aka a deeply held religious belief which is held by an alarmingly large portion of the followers of Islam treats homosexuality, apostates, womens rights, among st other issues with disdain.
If you think an attack on a gay club has nothing to do with Islam, his father's religion, HIS religion, then I do not know what else to say.
Islam has a problem with modernity, the Christians had their own reformation 100's of years ago, Islam is now desperately in need of the same.
Sadly, the western liberals want to hug and forgive them because our right wing is super mean to them, and therefore everyone who criticizes this religion is an ignorant person.
It says a lot, when the reformers of this religion, the ones who have escaped Islam as reformers, apostates, gays, all in UNISON speak out against Islam and are overwhelmingly frustrated at the west for not speaking the name of the problem.
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Islam has a problem with modernity, the Christians had their own reformation 100's of years ago, Islam is now desperately in need of the same.
Sadly, the western liberals want to hug and forgive them because our right wing is super mean to them, and therefore everyone who criticizes this religion is an ignorant person.
I know you're being flippant, but that really does sum it up. Simplistic, emotional, binary thinking. These people think like children. And many adults are too afraid to call them on their nonsense because they don't want to get daubed with the Bigot brush. When did we start letting children decide what constitutes bigotry?
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Because one "half arsed" philosophy, aka a deeply held religious belief which is held by an alarmingly large portion of the followers of Islam treats homosexuality, apostates, womens rights, among st other issues with disdain.
If you think an attack on a gay club has nothing to do with Islam, his father's religion, HIS religion, then I do not know what else to say.
Islam has a problem with modernity, the Christians had their own reformation 100's of years ago, Islam is now desperately in need of the same.
Sadly, the western liberals want to hug and forgive them because our right wing is super mean to them, and therefore everyone who criticizes this religion is an ignorant person.
It says a lot, when the reformers of this religion, the ones who have escaped Islam as reformers, apostates, gays, all in UNISON speak out against Islam and are overwhelmingly frustrated at the west for not speaking the name of the problem.
What does any of this have to do with a conflicted gay guy from Brooklyn who apparently had just contracted HIV going on a rampage? If you don't think this didn't have so much more import then I don't know what to say.
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If you think an attack on a gay club has nothing to do with Islam, his father's religion, HIS religion, then I do not know what else to say.
Islam has a problem with modernity, the Christians had their own reformation 100's of years ago, Islam is now desperately in need of the same.
What about James Howell, the white guy from Indiana who was (thankfully!) caught before he could go on a shooting rampage at the LA pride parade? Was his violent homophobia motivated by Islamic beliefs too?
What about James Howell, the white guy from Indiana who was (thankfully!) caught before he could go on a shooting rampage at the LA pride parade? Was his violent homophobia motivated by Islamic beliefs too?
Do you think that this is a convincing argument? Everyone is aware that Islamic terrorism isn't the only problem in the world.
Do you think that this is a convincing argument? Everyone is aware that Islamic terrorism isn't the only problem in the world.
Thor asserted that the Orlando shooter was clearly motivated by Islamic beliefs. That might be true (although based on the news I've read about him, I'm unconvinced), but it doesn't explain the would-be LA shooter's motive to attempt virtually the exact same type of massacre against the exact same vulnerable minority group. Hatred of LGBT people is by no means exclusive to Muslims, and reforming Islam isn't going to stamp out violence motivated by homophobia.
28% of Americans think gay marriage should be illegal. As I've said before is it really a surprise a third world Muslim country would be a little behind the wonderful democratic United States of America?
People mention the numbers of Muslim countries as if their own country or their neighbor to the South is perfect.
Yes I know some will say that no one has said that but I've also not seen any numbers portraying Americans views on Homophobia when the Dallas shooter was a home grown terrorist.
All religions including Christianity need to accept homosexuals. Period.
I think this had a lot to do with how ordinary Americans perceive promiscuous homosexual lifestyles. Don't forget Bill Krause, Randy Shills, and other prominent homosexual activists called for the closure of the bathhouse.
Nik - why can't you engage in a free discussion. Lots of stuff is relevant beyond your narrowly-defined pre-conceptions. As I said, people seem to be turned off by promiscuity not just homosexuality. I draw in evidence that many homosexuals have shared that same perspective. This is a thread trying to figure out why a closeted gay Muslim man shot up a gay nightclub after all.
Have you ever been inside a gay club? The clash of cultures is important to address.
