Muhammad Ali passed away tonight

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

I wasn't alive when he was fighting but what I picked up over the years gave me the general opinion that he was an overly narcissistic jerk.

Given the outpouring of respect and adulation over the last day or so I want to go back and watch some of his footage to see if my opinion is warranted.

Narcissistic for sure. His ego was as big as they come. He was the most hated person in America for a while.

What's important to remember is that he stood up for his beliefs, like few people, particularly black people, did. He was an inspiration for young black people, and young people in general, that they could actually affect change. That they could speak their mind. And that they didn't have to fear persecution or "the man".

As someone who wasn't around for his fighting, the biggest thing I take from him is his social impact, which really is comparable to King, Malcolm X and the like. He did it from a different avenue (sports), but he used his fame like no other.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

I wasn't alive when he was fighting but what I picked up over the years gave me the general opinion that he was an overly narcissistic jerk.

Given the outpouring of respect and adulation over the last day or so I want to go back and watch some of his footage to see if my opinion is warranted.

Watch footage. Read interviews. It`s fascinating to see how the public attitudes about Ali evolved.

When he was Cassius Clay, he was disliked as a preening loudmouth. A more outrageous Tyrell Owens. And this in an era that had far less tolerance for showboating in athletes than today.

When he converted to Islam the dislike turned to hatred for many. And not just racist whites. Most American blacks at the time were unabashed Christians, and the Nation of Islam was far from a mainstream religion. Among its tenets was the separation of whites and blacks, including some pretty shocking attitudes about miscegenation*.

With his stand on Vietnam he became a hero of the anti-war youth movement. But the anti-war youth movement wasn`t exactly popular either. Jackie Robinson, for instance, publicly denounced Ali`s refusal to report for military duty.

His legend as a fighter grew after he returned from being banned. His fights with Frazier and Foreman were the greatest sporting events of their era. But even then, Ali was not the beloved figure he would later become. His vicious mocking of Joe Frazier, who he repeatedly likened to a gorilla (Frazier had a much darker complexion than Ali), and who he called an Uncle Tom (about the worst thing you could call a proud black man in those days) angered even many of his black fans.

He was a superstar in the 70s, no doubt. But still a controversial and widely disliked one. It wasn`t until he stopped boxing, public sentiment caught up on issues like Vietnam, and he dialed back the ego (no need to behave outrageously if you`re not promoting a fight) that Ali began to emerge as a heroic and beloved figure.

A remarkable man. But at the peak of his fame, not the adored figure he`s being painted as today.

* From a 1975 Playboy interview:

PLAYBOY:
...meanwhile, perhaps you could tell us why restrictions on Muslim women are far more stringent than upon Muslim men.

ALI:
Because they should be. Women are sex symbols.

PLAYBOY:
To whom?

ALI:
To me.

PLAYBOY:
And aren’t you a sex symbol to women?

ALI:
Still, men don’t walk around with their chests out. Anyway, I’d rather see a man with his breasts showing than a woman. Why should she walk around with half her titties out? There gotta be restrictions that way.

PLAYBOY:
But why should men formulate those restrictions?

ALI:
Because in the Islamic world, the man’s the boss and the woman stays in the background. She don’t want to call the shots.

PLAYBOY:
We can almost hear women’s liberation leaders saying, “Sisters, you’ve been brainwashed. You should control your own lives.”

ALI:
Not Muslim women—Christian women. Muslim women don’t think like that. See, the reason we so powerful is that we don’t let the white man control our women. They obey us. And when a Muslim girl becomes a woman, she don’t want to walk around with her behind hanging out. Horses and dogs and mules walk around with their behinds out. Humans hide their behinds.

PLAYBOY:
Are Muslim women allowed to have careers or are they supposed to stay in the kitchen?

ALI:
A lot of ’em got careers, working for and with their brothers, but you don’t find ’em in no white man’s office in downtown New York working behind secretarial desks. Too many black women been used in offices. And not even in bed—on the floor. We know it because we got office Negroes who’ve told us this. So we protect our women, ’cause women are the field that produces our nation. And if you can’t protect your women, you can’t protect your nation. Man, I was in Chicago a couple of months ago and saw a white fella take a black woman into a motel room. He stayed with her two or three hours and then walked out—and a bunch of brothers saw it and didn’t even say nothin’. They should have thrown rocks at his car or kicked down the door while he was in there screwing her—do something to let him know you don’t like it. How can you be a man when another man can come get your woman or your daughter or your sister—and take her to a room and screw her—and, ######, you don’t even protest?

But nobody touches our women, white or black. Put a hand on a Muslim sister and you are to die. You may be a white or black man in an elevator with a Muslim sister and if you pat her on the behind, you’re supposed to die right there.

PLAYBOY:
You’re beginning to sound like a carbon copy of a white racist. Let’s get it out front: Do you believe that lynching is the answer to interracial sex?

ALI:
A black man should be killed if he’s messing with a white woman. And white men have always done that. They lynched ######s for even looking at a white woman; they’d call it reckless eyeballing and bring out the rope. Raping, patting, mischief, abusing, showing our women disrespect—a man should die for that. And not just white men—black men, too. We will kill you, and the brothers who don’t kill you will get their behinds whipped and probably get killed themselves if they let it happen and don’t do nothin’ about it. Tell it to the President—heain’t gonna do nothin’ about it. Tell it to the FBI: We’ll kill anybody who tries to mess around with our women. Ain’t nobody gonna bother them.

PLAYBOY:
And what if a Muslim woman wants to go out with non-Muslim blacks—or white men, for that matter?

ALI:
Then she dies. Kill her, too.

[Thor]

If time travel was possible I would love to see a fight between Ali in his prime and Tyson in his prime.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Thor

If time travel was possible I would love to see a fight between Ali in his prime and Tyson in his prime.

Tyson in his prime was simply an unstoppable freak of nature, I'm not so sure Ali could dance his way to victory fighting a tasmanian devil with hands made of sledgehammers.

Both lost years which should have been their prime so who knows.

[Thor]

My bet would be on Tyson, in his prime he was a killing machine. But the fight would be a sight to behold.

[T@T]

I would have liked a prime Lewis/Ali fight, like a few of his fights Lennox might have lost the first one, adapt and win the rematch with ease.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Thor

If time travel was possible I would love to see a fight between Ali in his prime and Tyson in his prime.

Here`s a good analysis of who would win that fight.

Mike Tyson vs Muhammad Ali.

Muhammad Ali’s style was the exact style that gave Mike Tyson major trouble. He was tall, his reach was long and he kept fighters at bay with a mix of quick powerful shots. Tyson never defeated a fighter of this style who wasn’t afraid of him...

Tyson was a physical marvel and it shows in the categories that he has over Ali. Tyson is superior to Ali in Power, Speed and Defense. These are all critical components of boxing.

Ali was a more complete warrior than Mike Tyson. As a result he takes home six categories…Style, Chin, Heart, Psychology, Key Losses and Stamina/Endurance.

There is also something else to note. Ali, while inferior to Tyson, was no slouch when it came to power and speed. Tyson, on the other hand, had major deficiencies in chin, heart, psychology and stamina. Any opponent who beat Ali did so in a hard fought battle that went AT LEAST 10 rounds.

Frazier won a unanimous decision in 15 rounds.
Ken Norton won a split decision in 12 rounds.
Leon Spinks won a split decision in 15 rounds.
Larry Holmes won a TKO in 10 rounds.
Trevor Berbick won a unanimous decision in 10 rounds.

In order for Tyson to beat Ali he’d have to take him down and take him down quick. Some of the best boxers in American history couldn’t do it and Tyson wouldn’t do it either.

This fight would be hard fought for the first few rounds. In round five or six Ali would begin to outclass and frustrate Mike Tyson. Tyson was known to get anxious (as he was known to do) in those middle rounds and take big risks with punches. He’d connect with just enough shots to open himself up for major punishment.

By round 10, Tyson would be clearly outclassed and looking for a way out. He’d get it in the form of a unanimous decision for Ali.

[habernac]

And for those last three losses, he was an old man. Tyson would be in deep trouble fighting Ali at his prime.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Here`s a good analysis of who would win that fight.

Mike Tyson vs Muhammad Ali.

"Muhammad Ali’s style was the exact style that gave Mike Tyson major trouble. He was tall, his reach was long and he kept fighters at bay with a mix of quick powerful shots"

Seriously? That's a truly bad analysis, 5'10 Tyson destroyed tall, short, long and all fighters for years. He was 37-0 knocking out tall long reach fighters like Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs, Bruno and Williams in championship fights in under 4 rounds. Tyson loved the big guys for the most part.

Tyson got caught with a lucky shot from Douglas but otherwise didn't loose a fight till he was 30 and that was after spending 4 years in jail. Even in his middle 30's he was dropping big tall fighters until he ran into Lewis.

My opinion but I think a pre jail Tyson would have crushed Ali in 3-4 rounds, different era though.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by T@T

Seriously? That's a truly bad analysis, 5'10 Tyson destroyed tall, short, long and all fighters for years. He was 37-0 knocking out tall long reach fighters like Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs, Bruno and Williams in championship fights in under 4 rounds. Tyson loved the big guys for the most part.

Tyson got caught with a lucky shot from Douglas but otherwise didn't loose a fight till he was 30 and that was after spending 4 years in jail. Even in his middle 30's he was dropping big tall fighters until he ran into Lewis.

My opinion but I think a pre jail Tyson would have crushed Ali in 3-4 rounds, different era though.

Did you read the full article, or just the excerpt?

[troutman]

Ali (32) dismantled Foreman (25), and I believe Foreman hit at least as hard as Tyson.

List of most powerful punchers (not sure how they arrived at this):

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...history/page/5

7. Tyson
4. Liston
2. Foreman
1. Shavers

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ll-time/page/8

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Watch footage. Read interviews. It`s fascinating to see how the public attitudes about Ali evolved.

When he was Cassius Clay, he was disliked as a preening loudmouth. A more outrageous Tyrell Owens. And this in an era that had far less tolerance for showboating in athletes than today.

When he converted to Islam the dislike turned to hatred for many. And not just racist whites. Most American blacks at the time were unabashed Christians, and the Nation of Islam was far from a mainstream religion. Among its tenets was the separation of whites and blacks, including some pretty shocking attitudes about miscegenation*.

With his stand on Vietnam he became a hero of the anti-war youth movement. But the anti-war youth movement wasn`t exactly popular either. Jackie Robinson, for instance, publicly denounced Ali`s refusal to report for military duty.

His legend as a fighter grew after he returned from being banned. His fights with Frazier and Foreman were the greatest sporting events of their era. But even then, Ali was not the beloved figure he would later become. His vicious mocking of Joe Frazier, who he repeatedly likened to a gorilla (Frazier had a much darker complexion than Ali), and who he called an Uncle Tom (about the worst thing you could call a proud black man in those days) angered even many of his black fans.

He was a superstar in the 70s, no doubt. But still a controversial and widely disliked one. It wasn`t until he stopped boxing, public sentiment caught up on issues like Vietnam, and he dialed back the ego (no need to behave outrageously if you`re not promoting a fight) that Ali began to emerge as a heroic and beloved figure.

A remarkable man. But at the peak of his fame, not the adored figure he`s being painted as today.

* From a 1975 Playboy interview:

Chuvalo played up on Ali's misogyny by showing up at a match press conference dressed in drag.

In fact, the Chuvalo match in 1966 happened because of the growing hatred for him in the U.S. No one wanted to host his matches any more. Here is a good write-up on it:

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/...still-standing

My favourite parts:

It was a gripping time for boxing, with Ali embroiled in controversy over his anti-Vietnam War stance and refusal to be drafted. The Louisville, Ky., native famously said at the time that he “ain’t got no quarrel with them Viet Cong.”

He had been slated to fight Ernie Terrell in Chicago, but fierce opposition from U.S. war veterans and others over what they called Ali’s “unpatriotic” statements moved Illinois state officials to declare the bout “illegal.”

Instead, the fight was offered to Chuvalo — on only 17 days notice. Ali’s promoters originally looked at staging it in Montreal, but when war vets threatened to boycott the Expo 67 world’s fair, then-mayor Jean Drapeau backed out.

Even in Toronto, there was opposition to letting Ali fight. Officials demanded that they not bill it a title bout, even though it would be the champion’s third defence. That he had converted to Islam and changed his name from Cassius Clay made him even more unpopular to some.

But just by staying upright and not giving up against the world’s best heavyweight made Chuvalo a hero to fans across Canada and around the world.

“He showed Canadians weren’t soft, that they were durable and they wanted to win so badly and were good,” said Lewis. “It was electric. Everybody was tuned in.”

Chuvalo said later he had never faced a fighter with such quick hands, but found Ali’s punches less heavy than expected.

Ali said: “He is the toughest fighter I ever fought.”

----

“When it was all over, he was the guy who went to the hospital because he was (urinating) blood. Me? I went dancing with my wife,” he said in his biography “Chuvalo: A Fighter’s Life.” “No question I got the best of that deal.”

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by troutman

Ali (32) dismantled Foreman (25), and I believe Foreman hit at least as hard as Tyson.

List of most powerful punchers (not sure how they arrived at this):

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...history/page/5

7. Tyson
4. Liston
2. Foreman
1. Shavers

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ll-time/page/8

People tend to think of Ali as a dancing dodger, but he could take a punch better than almost any other heavyweight in history. He took punch after punch after punch from George frickin' Foreman and didn't go down. He traded blows with George Frazier for 14 rounds. He took many hammer blows from Ernie Shavers (who Larry Holmes said was a harder hitter than Tyson) and didn't go down.

Three times in his career Ali was knocked down and came back and won the fight. He was only ever knocked out in the twilight of his career when he was an old man.

Ali stood up against boxers who could punch as hard as Tyson. Did Tyson ever beat a boxer who could take punches the way Ali could?

[peter12]

That analysis is dead-on. Tyson was hellish and terrifying, but if you cracked the facade (truly a superhuman feat in itself), he crumbled quite quickly. Ali was the greatest, no question.

Now would Tyson have stood a chance against Foreman or Frazier? Far more interesting question.

[snootchiebootchies]

I think it would be more fun to speculate who would win between Joe Louis and Ali. Both Louis and Ali were known to be able to take lots of punishment before going down. Louis was considered the heavier puncher, but Ali is considered to be the quicker of the two.

[Locke]

I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room was dark.

Haha! Thats always my favourite!

[V]

But did Ali ever make a kick-ass TV show with a talking pigeon??

Decision to Tyson.

[troutman]

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...nap-story.html

Ali also starred in his own Saturday morning cartoon, “I Am the Greatest: The Adventures of Muhammad Ali,” which aired in 1977.

Featuring the voice of Ali along with his publicist Frank Bannister, the series featured the duo traveling the country and solving mysteries, not unlike the “Scooby-Doo” gang.

Still the Greatest!

[Vulcan]

Sonny Liston was the Mike Tyson of his day and Ali beat him twice. Everyone thought Clay was a fool for taking the Liston fight. Like Liston, Tyson wouldn't be able to catch him and would hit the point of giving up.

[Fuzz]

Ali vs Rocky Balboa? Rocky can take hits like no one else. Not sure he could hit Ali much though.