Nice job with the disaster relief GWB

[Patek23]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 3 2005, 10:01 AM

You do understand that the Feds cant do ANYTHING in these situations without requests from the state and municipal level right?

Meaning, that even evil old George Bush cant deploy the military without the request from the Governor and/or the Mayor....in ANY town On top of that the military CANNOT act as law enforcement on US soil....its against the law. National Guard can however, and thats why they were the first bunch dispatched to the region. They just didnt request enough of them for what transpired...they being the Governor and the Mayor. Nothing to do with Bush in this instance...at all.

For days before the feds deplored forces Nagin pleaded for help, it was only that political hag goverener of LA who was to busy with her love in for GW who hindered things, mayors only have so much power.

[Flame On]

I don't see it your way Firefly.
I think it is not the mayors job to ask for military assets from the government. Does every mayor in the US go around with a spreadsheet of all the assets they may have to call on? "hmmm let me see some sorta cool floating tank that can go underwater and hold 200 people a time, is that on the list....No." "ok how about some giant water scooper than can push out the water and turn it into evian? No again". That would be quite comical actually.
Whether the fault was his or not; and I have different views there too, its not his job to order in the military.
What would happen if terrorists struck, does he have to sit back and gauge the military response that would be need too and order that in from the government.
Did Rudi Guliani specifically request for airforce planes with orders to shoot down anything to speed to new york on 9-11? No that was just acted on from up higher.
And Rudi did a great job.

[Patek23]

Sorry for posting so quickly and not grouped but think about Nagin's options.

He gets 5 days notice that a Hurricane that could wipe out his entire city will most likely hit, he doesn't have enough info at the time.

Now he has 4 days, word comes in that this is more serious than thought he tells people to evacuate and warns business owners to board up shop

3 Days till the storm hits and people aren't taking it seriously so he gives them a more stern warning and asks (this one is hypothetical) the Govener for assistance in warning the state and to offer more manpower to assist in getting everyone out

Day 2 before the storm hits, and the Mayor orders mandatory evacuation and opens both lanes of the highway to get people out.


IMO his only fault is not having porter potties in the Superdome.


All the blame lies on the Governer and President.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 3 2005, 10:01 AM

You do understand that the Feds cant do ANYTHING in these situations without requests from the state and municipal level right?

Meaning, that even evil old George Bush cant deploy the military without the request from the Governor and/or the Mayor....in ANY town On top of that the military CANNOT act as law enforcement on US soil....its against the law. National Guard can however, and thats why they were the first bunch dispatched to the region. They just didnt request enough of them for what transpired...they being the Governor and the Mayor. Nothing to do with Bush in this instance...at all.

That's a technicality transplant. Or are you saying the feds have no input there whatsoever?
What if terrorits dropped a nuke on them (hypothetically) and communications are out etc. The feds are all going to watch from afar until some dead member of the regional governments calls them up?
FEMA PC right now regarding these exact matters. Talking about how there are legal issues and how they've stepped up to a Primary Responder, so they can get around some of those legal issues. Guess we're both right, in so far as the legal issues are there, but they can create ways to work with them/around them.

[transplant99]

That's a technicality transplant.

The law is a "technicality"? OK then.

Or are you saying the feds have no input there whatsoever?

Until requested by state and municipal officials....yes that's what i am saying because that is the law.

What if terrorits dropped a nuke on them (hypothetically) and communications are out etc. The feds are all going to watch from afar until some dead member of the regional governments calls them up?

Ummm...you do uinderstand the difference between an act of war and an act of nature do you not?

The Feds are responsible for the defence of the entire nation from attacks by others. States are responsible for the plans, executions of those plans, and any requests for aid from the federal level. Its just the way it is and always has been unless martial law is declared on a national level....which didn't happen here.

Bush was asked BEFORE the hurricane hit to declare a state of emergency in Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana by those Governors...he did that, which allowed the states to request that FEMA and National Guard be deployed closer to the region in the event that the 'cane struck those places. They did....but it was no where near enough for what actually transpired.
Then with the complete eradication of a communication system, its pretty easy to understand why things were so seemingly slow to get done.

When the extent of damage was starting to be realized on Wednesday (after the levees broke in NO and when the assessment of damage was coming back to the Governors) THEN they requested additional help including National Guard members totalling well in excess of 50,000 PLUS more aid in the form of food, water, etc etc etc...which took a couple days to get in motion and in place. It sucks for those people in ALL the affected areas that it took, and is taking, as long as it is to get any relief, but its just the way things unfolded, and sorry....that simply cant be pinned all on Bush...he has done what was requested of him and the chain of command and procedures has been followed.

I agree that the plans of FEMA and the states were horribly inadequate....but thats on them and their officials.

I just heard a report that they are conducting 200 helicopter missions an hour right now from the NO convention center and for those stranded on rooftops. Thats amazing in itself.

[InTheSlot]

Man, some of you guys are nuts. How do you expect the National Guard (tnot talking about the ones unavailable in Iraq, but those that are currently in N.O.) to go save people when they are shooting at them? They're trying to help but they're getting shot at. I don't know about you but I would be quick to stop recusing someone if they decided to open fire on me when I was lending a helping hand.

Beyond that, I'd also like to know how you expect fire and recue teams to stop the so called explosions going on in factories like the topic starter mentioned with a link, when there are no accessible roads to get to the scene. They have no choice but to let said buildings burn to the ground because there simply can't get there with the floods all around.


If you guys actually pay attention to the footage, one citizen in N.O. who lost their entire home was seen shaking hands with and hugging Bush, and the citizen said: "I'm real glad President Bush came down here. It's one thing if a picture says a thousand words, but being here really hits home."

[Patek23]

These people are shooting because they are fending for themselves, if help is offered to them than no more shooting.

[InTheSlot]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer@Sep 3 2005, 02:22 PM
These people are shooting because they are fending for themselves, if help is offered to them than no more shooting.

Gimme a break, that's completely ridiculous. A hurricane blew a city a part, of course they're fending for themselves. Help is coming, donations are being made, it hasn't even been a week yet and some of these morons have lost their minds. You lost your house, that doesn't give you the right to shoot at people, especially ones who are trying to save you.


Believe me, coming from a person who managed to side-step 4 hurricanes pretty much one year ago, salvation will come. It might take 6 months or even a year before these people get back on their feet as far as getting a new home and job are concerned, but they really need to not go nuts and wreak havoc on the city and the citizens around them.

[Patek23]

Give me proof of them shooting at Red Cross or FEMA and not just a dude with a blog. They're shooting at each other and the police because A) The cops are corrupt or B) They're trying to stop you from looting things you need to survive, (if the cop that was shot in the head was shot by a guy looting a TV that makes him more dispicable).

[InTheSlot]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer@Sep 3 2005, 02:56 PM
Give me proof of them shooting at Red Cross or FEMA and not just a dude with a blog. They're shooting at each other and the police because A) The cops are corrupt or B) They're trying to stop you from looting things you need to survive, (if the cop that was shot in the head was shot by a guy looting a TV that makes him more dispicable).

Hello? The cops, just like FEMA and th Red Cross, are trying to save people too! It's just as bad whether you're shooting at a cop or someone from the Red Cross or FEMA.


Don't gimme any garbage about the police being "corrupt". That's a crock of shinguard. They might be tired and stressed from working 24 hours a day for the last 5 days straight, but that's about it. Who can blame them for being a little cranky?


And, you want proof of citizens shooting at the rescue aid? Turn on the news! I dunno what kind of coverage you're getting in Canada, but I'm not very far from the state of Louisianna, and here they're showing footage virtually every minute of the day on a local news station we have called Bay News 9. I don't know what else you'd like me to say. Your outlook on this situation is baffling.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by InTheSlot@Sep 3 2005, 02:02 PM
Man, some of you guys are nuts. How do you expect the National Guard (tnot talking about the ones unavailable in Iraq, but those that are currently in N.O.) to go save people when they are shooting at them? They're trying to help but they're getting shot at. I don't know about you but I would be quick to stop recusing someone if they decided to open fire on me when I was lending a helping hand.

It's not like every person in NO has a gun and is shooting at the NG. This is a few issolated incidents and should not stop the relief effort. Yes, it is stupid to shoot at the choppers, of course, but it's not as large of a factor as you make it out to be.

If US soldiers can deal with suicide bombers and insurgents trying to kill them in Iraq, yet still work to "Save the people of Iraq".
Why can't they deal with a couple of thugs with hand guns to "Save the people of the US".?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by InTheSlot@Sep 3 2005, 03:06 PM
Don't gimme any garbage about the police being "corrupt". That's a crock of shinguard.

As noted on this board many times, the NO police have had many allegations of being corrupt long before the hurricane hit. If it true? I don't know, but the amount of discussion it has had over the years certainly qualifies it as of being worthy of thought, and not a "crock of shinguard".
The only "crock of shinguard" is you choosing to ignore and write off an issue that has been around for years, because it helps back up your very small ignorant arguement.

[Patek23]

Originally posted by InTheSlot+Sep 3 2005, 03:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (InTheSlot @ Sep 3 2005, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Flaming Homer@Sep 3 2005, 02:56 PM
Give me proof of them shooting at Red Cross or FEMA and not just a dude with a blog. They're shooting at each other and the police because A) The cops are corrupt or B) They're trying to stop you from looting things you need to survive, (if the cop that was shot in the head was shot by a guy looting a TV that makes him more dispicable).

Hello? The cops, just like FEMA and th Red Cross, are trying to save people too! It's just as bad whether you're shooting at a cop or someone from the Red Cross or FEMA.


Don't gimme any garbage about the police being "corrupt". That's a crock of shinguard. They might be tired and stressed from working 24 hours a day for the last 5 days straight, but that's about it. Who can blame them for being a little cranky?


And, you want proof of citizens shooting at the rescue aid? Turn on the news! I dunno what kind of coverage you're getting in Canada, but I'm not very far from the state of Louisianna, and here they're showing footage virtually every minute of the day on a local news station we have called Bay News 9. I don't know what else you'd like me to say. Your outlook on this situation is baffling. [/b][/quote]
InTheSlot, New Orleans police force has been known for it's corruption, it's been proven,speculated and every other sort of thing that could happen, did you not see that video that had those cops looting the walmart with the other citizens?

[arsenal]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer@Sep 3 2005, 04:22 PM
InTheSlot, New Orleans police force has been known for it's corruption, it's been proven,speculated and every other sort of thing that could happen, did you not see that video that had those cops looting the walmart with the other citizens?

And Nagin has been working on fixing that. He was only elected mayor back 02. The Mayor before Nagin was the one that allowed the corruption, as he was one of them.

Saying that the entire police for is corupt becuase of 2 policing officers looking for shoes in Walmart is abit ludicrous.

What you don't hear or see are the hundreds of police officers working with no sleep, trying to save people, and keep some semblance of order. Trying to deal with the "thugs with hand guns". I think it is more of a few thugs though, and I don't see the justification for shooting at evacuees, helicopters, planes as a sign of "Take me with you".

[moon]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer@Sep 3 2005, 02:22 PM
These people are shooting because they are fending for themselves, if help is offered to them than no more shooting.

Shooting at people who are coming to help you is fending for yourself???

Maybe if they took ten seconds away from trying to take advantage of the situation they are in they would realise that these people are here to help them.

[moon]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer@Sep 3 2005, 02:56 PM
Give me proof of them shooting at Red Cross or FEMA and not just a dude with a blog. They're shooting at each other and the police because A) The cops are corrupt or B) They're trying to stop you from looting things you need to survive, (if the cop that was shot in the head was shot by a guy looting a TV that makes him more dispicable).

Is that really supposed to make people believe that they are right for shooting at the POLICE???

Because they are looting for things "they need"?? BS they are. TV's are the most important things right now. Real survival need.

And this corruption crap is BS. Let it go. Even if it were true, which I doubt, it still doesn't mean that you have any right morally or legally to shoot at them.

These people who are shooting at cops are pieces of garbage who don't deserve the help that these people are risking their lives to give them.

[La Flames Fan]

Just to throw my two cents in...

If Bill Clinton was running the country or any democrat for that matter, I would be passed at them too. I wouldn't care who was running the country right now, Bush, Clinton, I would feel the exact same way. The response was slow. There's no debating that, even Sean Hannity thought so.

Needless to say, there should have been martial law long ago, there should have been many many more troops long ago. And this talk that it was too hard to get there....That's absolute crap. The place is inundated with water, to one side a lake, the other, an ocean, last I checked there was an abundance of boats (small, large) within the National Guard, and if by some chance there wasn't...They could sure get them fast.

No excuses.

[arsenal]

Originally posted by La Flames Fan@Sep 3 2005, 04:58 PM
The place is inundated with water, to one side a lake, the other, an ocean, last I checked there was an abundance of boats (small, large) within the National Guard, and if by some chance there wasn't...They could sure get them fast.

No excuses.

Sure there are lots of boats available. How do you get them there? If they are the east coast, you have to go around the Florida Penensula. On the west coast, you have to go through Panama.
The closest would Florida, and I am sure their resources have been tapped.

[Thunderball]

I don't think you can completely blame Bush for this. Love, like, despise or tolerate the guy.

Unlike Canada, the States really are that, States. It was ASSUMED (albeit incorrectly, but armchair quarterbacking isn't needed here) that this situation could be dealt with my the State authorities... Louisiana National Guard (Army), Lousiana detachment of FEMA, City of New Orleans, etc. These guys get the call first. The second things even began to look grim, the Governor of Louisiana should've been burning down the lines to the President to order in the army, navy and airforce resources of the entire nation.

The Governor failed the people of New Orleans. FEMA failed New Orleans, the City of New Orleans failed New Orleans, the NIMBYs and citizens of New Orleans failed themselves by not taking a temporary tax increase to increase the strength of the levees. The President came on the scene late (arguably, he should've taken charge, but its up to the State to command that of the President). Did Bush fail? yes and no. Say the situation didn't deteriorate and he was right in everyone's face. He would be criticized for wasting money on overkill, or stuff like that. You know, people love to blame someone for something... its easy.

I'm not defending Bush either, I just think there's a lot of blame that could be passed out, but the energy is better served on repairing the current situation.

This racial stuff is frankly garbage. New Orleans is a crucial US city with many crucial components (ports, refineries, etc.) and is a Republican state. Black or white, this would happen the same way. And yes, white people would be looting too, and more than likely are. Its human nature. Intentionally doing less or acting slowly would lose the Republicans Louisiana, and their electoral college votes and potentially the 2008 election. They might have lost them already. This has nothing to do with race or average income. They need to get everything up and running, and those things need people to run them. People need homes. Thats the way its seen, period. This is business and politics, no room to see any colors but blue/red or green.

[longsuffering]

Originally posted by FireFly@Sep 3 2005, 12:46 AM
Do you just expect him to snap his fingers and have troops and supplies magically appear? Do you think it's the federal government's responsibility to ready every possible city for a disaster like this?

Yes on both counts. That's the job of the federal government.