[Rumour] Flames going hard after Yale goalie Alex Lyon UPDATE: Signs with Flyers

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

Again, I'm not saying he's a bust or that he took a step back this year. I'm just saying I would not call him an elite goaltending prospect. IMO, elite means you're one of the absolute best prospects (top 5-10 at the position). Gillies falls in this category. McDonald was ranked #15 last year and I'd guess he'll be closer to #20 this year. I'm still saying he's a good prospect but I fail to see how you can argue him being elite.

I am taking exception to you claiming he had a down year developmentally, you know the stuff addressed in the part of my post that you left out of that quote.

[Toonage]

A little off topic - I thought McDonald was an interesting choice, as they passed on Demko to choose him. At the time I wondered if Demko's hip issues scared them off and then just a year or so later Gillies had the same issue. Now I wonder if they knew it could be an issue for Jon and didn't want 2 goalies in the system with the same problems.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

IMO, elite means you're one of the absolute best prospects (top 5-10 at the position). Gillies falls in this category.

So ten is the cutoff. Demko was not an elite goaltending prospect coming into this season. Gotcha.

Originally Posted by Toonage

A little off topic - I thought McDonald was an interesting choice, as they passed on Demko to choose him. At the time I wondered if Demko's hip issues scared them off and then just a year or so later Gillies had the same issue. Now I wonder if they knew it could be an issue for Jon and didn't want 2 goalies in the system with the same problems.

Demko being bat-**** insane psychologically probably scared them off. Dude reminds me of Kevin Garnett.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Toonage

A little off topic - I thought McDonald was an interesting choice, as they passed on Demko to choose him. At the time I wondered if Demko's hip issues scared them off and then just a year or so later Gillies had the same issue. Now I wonder if they knew it could be an issue for Jon and didn't want 2 goalies in the system with the same problems.

They knew about Gilies' affliction, he had missed games due to his hip before, but McDonald was ranked very close to Demko in that draft and even prior to the second round Sam Cosentino (IIRC) made the suggestion that McDonald would go before Demko in the draft

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He wasn't great in the WJHC and has been just okay in the Q. At this point we have no idea if he will have an NHL career or he if he's the next Leland Irving. There's certainly nothing there to declare him a future spot on the Flames roster. It will take some time. My original point still stands that if Lyon is looking for the best shot at moving up to the NHL Calgary provides a very good opportunity.



I would argue that would be a good accomplishment 15 years ago but Canada isn't producing NHL goaltenders like it used to as most of the top goaltenders are coming from Europe and the US.

Yeah, he couldn't even make the top 20 list of Finnish goaltenders. What a bum!

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I am taking exception to you claiming he had a down year developmentally, you know the stuff addressed in the part of my post that you left out of that quote.

The stuff I left out (simply to save space cause your message was long) essentially agreed with me saying he had a tough year (coming back from surgery, rough start, poor WJHC, better 2nd half). I didn't say he had a down year.

I said his progression this year flat-lined for these same reasons. I was hoping for a full season of solid play and a nice performance at the WJHC. The fact that didn't happen but he's finishing strong evens things up (not +/- development year). But that's my opinion and I can see why you have a different opinion if you want to leave out his tough start and WJHC performance.

[GranteedEV]

More topically, whether or not McDonald fails to pass the arbitrary threshold of "elite" goaltending prospect, it's not untrue that Calgary's systemic goaltending depth is well regarded.

ingoalmag less than a month ago gave Calgary an A factoring in Ortio, Gillies, McDonald, Schneider. The only other teams whose goaltending prospect depths got an A or better were St. Louis, Washington, Boston, Winnipeg (A+) and Tampa (A+)

I'm sure Lyon's agent would make sure he's cognizant of that sort of thing.

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

So ten is the cutoff. Demko was not an elite goaltending prospect coming into this season. Gotcha.

Demko would have made my top 8 list (I'd probably remove Husso, McIntyre and Fucale from their top 10) and consider that group elite. It seems you're arguing that a much larger number than 10 prospects should be considered elite? To me, if more than half the league has an "elite" goaltending prospect, you're probably throwing around that term too loosely.

[Strange Brew]

I suppose the question is how many goalie prospects you should have in the system at any time, on pro contracts. Seems like 3 would be the most, assuming you also have 2 in the NHL. That is a total of 10% of your allowable NHL contracts.

[PeteMoss]

I will say its very important to consider league averages when looking at goalie stats. Seems like in the NCAA having a save percentage over .920 is about normal while in the Q being around .900 is pretty good. Completely different animals.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I suppose the question is how many goalie prospects you should have in the system at any time, on pro contracts. Seems like 3 would be the most, assuming you also have 2 in the NHL. That is a total of 10% of your allowable NHL contracts.

I don't see Ortio playing for the Flames in the AHL next season so at the very least they will likely be looking for a backup goaltender in Stockton.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

Demko would have made my top 8 list (I'd probably remove Husso, McIntyre and Fucale from their top 10)

I'm impressed you have seen enough of these guys play to rank them at all.

and consider that group elite. It seems you're arguing that a much larger number than 10 prospects should be considered elite? To me, if more than half the league has an "elite" goaltending prospect, you're probably throwing around that term too loosely.

If we want to talk about the word "elite" I am arguing there is no "elite" goaltending prospect. Not even GIbson or Vasilevsky. Probably the only elite goaltening prospect in the last decade would be Carey Price as a prospect. Jumped to the NHL as a 20 year old and posted amazing percentages over half an NHL season worthof games. Anything less is not elite for a prospect.

If we're expanding the term to define "upper echelon" then yes I would include guys like McDonald because these are players Lyon would compete with for an opportunity at an NHL spot in the future.

[FlamingHomer]

I can't help but think they better evaluate the goalie coach before going after anyone else. Sigalet certainly must be somewhat responsible for the decline in talent among our 3 goalies. Even Backstrom who looked confident and technically sound the first game he played looked like Hiller's twin brother in the next games after only a handful of practices in between.

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I'm impressed you have seen enough of these guys play to rank them at all.

If we want to talk about the word "elite" I am arguing there is no "elite" goaltending prospect. Not even GIbson or Vasilevsky. Probably the only elite goaltening prospect in the last decade would be Carey Price as a prospect. Jumped to the NHL as a 20 year old and posted amazing percentages over half an NHL season worthof games. Anything less is not elite for a prospect.

If we're expanding the term to define "upper echelon" then yes I would include guys like McDonald because these are players Lyon would compete with for an opportunity at an NHL spot in the future.

So after all of this, you're now agreeing with me...and in fact, you're taking an even stronger stance than me that McDonald isn't even close to being an elite goaltender, nor is any current goaltending prospect??? Ha. I suppose I'll ignore the fact that in your previous post, you suggested I was a fool for not considering Danko elite. And that this all started because a magazine ranked McDonald #15, which you took to mean he's elite.

Your last post was definitely a highlight - asking me if I view Danko as elite then when I give my opinion, you critique me for providing my baseless opinion since there's no possible way I follow every goaltending prospect to have an informed opinion. Predictably, you follow that up with your own opinion that McDonald is in the upper echelon...because you've apparently seen all his peers play and you're able to separate them into tiers?? Or you just value your own opinion and discount anyone who disagrees with you?? Either way, I'm done dragging this out any further.

[868904]

Originally Posted by FlamingHomer

I can't help but think they better evaluate the goalie coach before going after anyone else. Sigalet certainly must be somewhat responsible for the decline in talent among our 3 goalies. Even Backstrom who looked confident and technically sound the first game he played looked like Hiller's twin brother in the next games after only a handful of practices in between.

I don't know if Sigalet is good or not, but I do want to see the Flames really push hard for Sean Burke. Burke has done wonders for the Coyotes goalies over the years.

The rumour was that Burke wants greater responsibility as an executive as opposed to just being a goaltending coach or consultant. Treliving obviously has ties to him from his Phoenix days. Maybe Treliving can give Burke some AGM type responsibilities but also act as an overseer of goaltending development across all levels of the organization.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

So after all of this, you're now agreeing with me...and in fact, you're taking an even stronger stance than me that McDonald isn't even close to being an elite goaltender, nor is any current goaltending prospect??? Ha. I suppose I'll ignore the fact that in your previous post, you suggested I was a fool for not considering Danko elite. And that this all started because a magazine ranked McDonald #15, which you took to mean he's elite.

Your last post was definitely a highlight - asking me if I view Danko as elite then when I give my opinion, you critique me for providing my baseless opinion since there's no possible way I follow every goaltending prospect to have an informed opinion. Predictably, you follow that up with your own opinion that McDonald is in the upper echelon...because you've apparently seen all his peers play and you're able to separate them into tiers?? Or you just value your own opinion and discount anyone who disagrees with you?? Either way, I'm done dragging this out any further.

All I've argued is that the definition of the word elite begin taken literally means no goaltender qualifies, and if as is likely in this thread, is expanded to mean "upper echelon" then there is no clear threshold whereby the tenth best goalie is "elite" and the eleventh best goalie is "not elite", especially when this ranking is made by people like you or I who don't watch these players very often and we're not pro scouts.

Sorry if I came across as abrasive but my point is that if there's such a fine line between "elite (expanded to mean upper echelon)" that the 12th ranked goalie qualifies and the 15th ranked goalie is by no means qualifying, it's a poor form of analysis. The context of this entire conversation isn't about defining the word "elite" it's about defining players who are a threat to Alex Lyon's chances within Calgary's system. EE used the word "Elite" and not "Upper Echelon" and that's led to the tangent of defining "elite". But his point was that McDonald is not a strong enough prospect to threaten Lyon yet Gillies is.

My basic disagreement is that there isn't the proven great separation between Gillies and McDonald that people claim there is. They were closer together than further apart a year ago, though naturally being two years apart in draft year they are at different stages of development. If Gillies is Elite, McDonald is Elite. If Gillies is not elite, McDonald is not elite. And Gillies missed a full developmental year anyways, which makes McDonald's so-called "tough" season moot in relation.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by 868904

I don't know if Sigalet is good or not, but I do want to see the Flames really push hard for Sean Burke. Burke has done wonders for the Coyotes goalies over the years.

The rumour was that Burke wants greater responsibility as an executive as opposed to just being a goaltending coach or consultant. Treliving obviously has ties to him from his Phoenix days. Maybe Treliving can give Burke some AGM type responsibilities but also act as an overseer of goaltending development across all levels of the organization.

The organization certainly has to investigate all possible means of upgrading their goaltending situation and given the play of all goaltenders to suit up this season Sigalet should not escape criticism.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Pretty salty, uncalled for post there. It's not a backhanded comment at all as McDonald isn't an elite goaltending prospect and my comment was more about Lyon's confidence in his game.

Salty? Maybe. Uncalled for? Not in the least. You know the game you play and every now and then someone is going to jump on you. I guess its my turn to take your post apart and remind you of what you said.

McDonald isn’t elite? Ranked 15th by In Goal Magazine in their list of Top 50 goaltending prospects. They seem to think he’s pretty elite. Ranked number one or number two at his position by every draft publication put out in his draft year. That seems to say he’s pretty elite. Played for Team Canada at the World Juniors. Seems to indicate he’s pretty elite. Mind you, your definition of elite may be different from what everybody else seems to think elite is and so skewed that there is only one elite player at any position.

Your comment was clearly a shot at McDonald. What part of “If he doesn't think he can beat out MacDonald then he doesn't have a lot of confidence in his abilities as that's not exactly a high bar,” is not a shot?

As I said in my post the Flames don't have any NHL goaltenders signed for the 2016/17 season as of now. I can understand a guy like him looking at NHL depth and thinking he would be hard up against it to break into the NHL but if this guy doesn't think he can beat out a goaltending prospect then he doesn't think he's very good.

Come on, that’s not what your quote says and you know it. Stop trying to run away from it.

I never said McDonald was a bum but he's had a mediocre season to date so I apologize for not boarding the McDonald bandwagon and assuming the Flames should not consider bringing in any more goaltending prospects because MacDonald is a sure thing.

You didn’t call him a bum? Saying the bar isn’t very high sure isn’t a glowing review of his play. I am also curious, how are you measuring this “mediocre” year? Are you taking into context the strength of his team? Are you aware of the weakness of his team? They didn’t have a single player crack the 60 point barrier. They scored less goals than they gave up as a team. Yet McDonald managed to win enough games to get his team into the playoffs and is one game from staging a first round upset, on the back of McDonald.

[Erick Estrada]

Ha ha ha nice ninja edit but I got you;

Originally Posted by New Era

Seriously? If I wasn’t on my phone I’d make this board crash by linking all the back-handed shots you have taken at our prospects. The search feature makes it pretty easy to find and link this stuff. All you have to do is go back and take a look at some of your comments about Mark Jankowski, Emile Poirier, Morgan Klimchuk, and on and on and on. I think it would be more difficult to find positive comments about our prospects from you than finding positive comments about the Oilers in the E=NG thread. There are three things certain in this life. Death, taxes and Erick Estrada taking an immediate dislike to a prospect once they are drafted by the Calgary Flames.

You posted this false accusation and then actually searched and found my post praising Poirier (always been a fan) and picking Jankowski in that thread predicting Flames prospects most likely to succeed. I've always been a Klimchuk fan if you go back even though he's had a tough season this year and I'm not as high as I used to be on him. So you attack me without doing any research and then make up false accusations and you expect to be taken seriously by anyone? Come on champ make this place crash with your proof.

Sure you deleted the quote once you realized you were dead wrong but all that goes to show is that you have a personal bias against me and it's clouded what you think is actual truth. As I said before pure uncalled for garbage and I don't care if McDonald is your favorite prospect. That's all fine and good as everyone is entitled to their opinion but don't be a dick.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Ha ha ha nice ninja edit but I got you;



You posted this false accusation and then actually searched and found my post praising Poirier (always been a fan) and picking Jankowski in that thread predicting Flames prospects most likely to succeed. I've always been a Klimchuk fan if you go back even though he's had a tough season this year and I'm not as high as I used to be on him. So you attack me without doing any research and then make up false accusations and you expect to be taken seriously by anyone? Come on champ make this place crash with your proof.

Sure you deleted the quote once you realized you were dead wrong but all that goes to show is that you have a personal bias against me and it's clouded what you think is actual truth. As I said before pure uncalled for garbage and I don't care if McDonald is your favorite prospect. That's all fine and good as everyone is entitled to their opinion but don't be a dick.

Deleted it because I'm on my phone and don't have the ability to search and link efficiently. Sorry "champ" but you're no different than moon. Crap all over our prospects non-stop. I actually saw that you went into the Poirier thread to make a positive comment after I called you out. Surprised? Nope, because that's the way you operate. Oh, and for the record, I'm not a McDonald fan. But I do know how to look at the context a player is stuck in and judge their performance accordingly. Try it yourself sometime.