Oct 2015 Alberta Budget Discussion

[stampsx2]

Ceci says our previous governments failed to diversify the Alberta economy? In the 70's Alberta's revenue came from 80% oil. In 2014 Alberta's economy was 6% based on oil revenues. Is he banking on the fact albertan's are uninformed?

Alberta is an economic engine and leader in Canada with the highest growth and lowest taxes. How does Ceci get off saying the previous governments have made a mess of things?

Added spending in healthcare and education even though we pay the second highest per capita already of any province? He should be looking for inefficiencies in the current system.

This is going to take generations to pay back.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Locke

And its also funny that that is absolutely not even remotely close to what I'm suggesting. I'm not even suggesting reducing teacher's pay.

I advocated trimming administrative fat and looking into cutting back some benefits.

But yeah, if the various receptionists and administrators are in charge of working conditions and class sizes then the education system is in more trouble than I realized.

Exactly. Instead of hiring 5 janitors to do 1 hour of work each per day, maybe they can cut it down to 2 janitors doing 2.5 hours a day. I know, crazy right?

[polak]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

How does Ceci get off saying the previous governments have made a mess of things?

Are you serious!?

Who put us in this mess then?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

My sarcastic comment (although the spirit of it is true, in my opinion) wasn't directed at you, and your comment towards administration. In fact there are some major problems concerning administration of education in this province. Rather it was toward the inevitable tagging on of teachers and nurses to the question of pay and condition of public service. (Why I quoted the "let's cut teacher, nurse, doctor pay comment)

I realize I was being an ass about it.

Fair enough, and I appreciate it, I havent exactly been a gentleman about it either and for that I apologize.

I've been banging the same drum incessantly so its probably getting old. I simply believe that I as an outsider have seen enough that people in the know should be able to see areas to save significant funds without sacrificing front-line services.

Are our health-care and educational systems operating at 100% efficiency? Of course not, nothing does, but where are they? What can be done?

I'm a big advocate of teachers and nurses, but thats where the money is needed, on the front lines. I'm not saying cut their pay, kill their pensions and give the money to Encana employees, I'm saying 'move it from where its being wasted.'

I just want to advocate efficiency because I see all the inefficiencies and then people say: "Welp, we like it the way it is so time to find some more revenue to pay for it!"

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by polak

Are you serious!?

Who put us in this mess then?

The Saudis.

That being said, it is SOP for the incoming party to blame the outgoing party for "putting us in this mess".

In 2019, someone else will probably be cleaning up the mess Notley put us in.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Exactly. Instead of hiring 5 janitors to do 1 hour of work each per day, maybe they can cut it down to 2 janitors doing 2.5 hours a day. I know, crazy right?

But how the government works is that they would hire the 5 janitors to do 1 hour of work, there would be 3 direct supervisors for those Janitors, and then those 3 supervisors would have 2 managers, 1 time card approver, 3 people reviewing their time cards 1 person to generate their pay, a logistics expert to order their supplies, 2 warehouse people to unload it and stock the shelves, 3 middle managers to surpervise that 15 person department, 4 consultants to make sure they're using the right mops, and a board to run them, there would also be a decidicated HR person to make sure that they're all getting long, and a HR consultant to make sure that they're getting enough work life balance.


And the janitors would still take 3 hours to do 1 hours worth of cleaning.

So that 2 hours of work would cost about $17 million bucks a year to do that one hour worth or work and we'd need 4 trucks and a building to house that department.

As well after they left for the day we'd probably need an inspector and a exterminator to kill the coachroaches that were feasting on the dirty floor.

[para transit fellow]

While there is an administrative component to Health care, AHS reports that is is fairly low -- like 1%

http://www.health.alberta.ca/documen...berta-2013.pdf

(P.17)

Is there really the savings that Brian Jean talks about?

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The Saudis.
That being said, it is SOP for the incoming party to blame the outgoing party for "putting us in this mess".
In 2019, someone else will probably be cleaning up the mess Notley put us in.

It's the fault of the previous government that the Saudi's could manipulate the market and we were completely unprepared for it. We should have a war chest the size of the Saudi Royal family's. The fact that we don't is on the PC government ignoring Lougheed, and then squandering Klein's cuts.

We've had the boogeyman of an NDP government in charge since Klein stepped down, without any of the social benefits. What kind of a conservative government leaves us with no money at all? It's the point of their existence!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

While there is an administrative component to Health care, AHS reports that is is fairly low -- like 1%

http://www.health.alberta.ca/documen...berta-2013.pdf

(P.17)

Is there really the savings that Brian Jean talks about?

Chances are that a lot of the administration is charged through general accounting and not through AHS, but its still there.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

It's the fault of the previous government that the Saudi's could manipulate the market and we were completely unprepared for it. We should have a war chest the size of the Saudi Royal family's. The fact that we don't is on the PC government ignoring Lougheed, and then squandering Klein's cuts.

We've had the boogeyman of an NDP government in charge since Klein stepped down, without any of the social benefits. What kind of a conservative government leaves us with no money at all? It's the point of their existence!

I don't disagree with you at all Harry, the previous government had become a joke and were incredible spendaholics. the NDP is proposing that we extinguish the fire by using gas because its like a liquid.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by polak

Are you serious!?

Who put us in this mess then?

You really should read and quote the whole paragraph not just pick which line you want to misinterpret.

Let me try again for you. Alberta is an economic leader in Canada with the lowest taxes and debt and highest migratory growth. What part of that do you consider a mess.

Your blame of the conservative party is lacking.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Chances are that a lot of the administration is charged through general accounting and not through AHS, but its still there.

I believe a lot of people may be confusing support positions with administrative positions. A janitor is a support position. A VP of something or other is administration

[Johnny199r]

Every government we have in Canada is a giant pyramid scheme.

Keep borrowing to pay off today's bills.

Tell it how it is and have a real plan to get serious about debt and spending and there's no way you'll get elected into gov't, just look at the last Ontario election.

People like all the stuff they get from gov't and don't want to pay more for it. They also refuse to have of it taken away. We are morally bankrupt.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by polak

Are you serious!?

Who put us in this mess then?

Can you tell me what you like so far about what the ndp has done? Thanks.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

It's the fault of the previous government that the Saudi's could manipulate the market and we were completely unprepared for it.

Certainly you're not blaming the actions of OPEC on our provincial government?

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

"Who goes there? Walking on my bridge? You will have to pay a toll!"

"Why it's me. A teacher that corrals your horrible spawn under unbearable conditions."

"My children can do anything that they please, as I am a wonderful parent, and my live in child care givers are from distant lands!"

"Can you at least make them do their homework?"

"That is your job, somehow! You make less money than I do, therefore I am your better, and you are my slave. You will take what I give you, and thank me for allowing you time to sleep during the week. Now, get off my bridge."

This response suggests that you believe that teachers are morally and ethically superior to all other vocations. Did I capture the essence of your response?

I'm not saying that they should cut salaries because they're overpaid. I'm saying that there's literally no money in the public coffer and you have to find REAL significant cuts, or REAL savings. Not just "administrative inefficiencies" and "cutting the fat".

Salaries are generally the largest cost of any company or department. A 5% rollback will get you huge savings, much like a 5% PST will bring in huge revenue. In a dire time like this, when we are borrowing for operations (and not just capital), I'm curious why you would suggest that public work should be immune to the problem of having no money.

[#-3]

I can't understand the economic argument for PST. It's crazy.

If you want to tax tourists, tax Hotels there are many many examples of those types of taxes, and the government ends up working with a fraction of the businesses.

If you want to tax the rich tax the rich on income, it's more direct and fair without the need for any new government infrastructure..

What a sales tax does is differ tax revenue by the government, rather than collecting it at the time of income they collect it. It doesn't have a huge impact on the government compared to sales tax but it does have a huge difference on the way individuals pay their taxes. A low income person will end up contributing 100% of their tax burden to the government within weeks of earnings. While a wealthy person will be able to invest and grow their money before contributing 100% of their tax burden, giving them a huge recognizable benefit that low income people just can't access.

It's regressive. We just shouldn't have policies that create explicit benefits for the rich, when their are easier and cheaper ways to directly achieve the goal of taxing people who can afford the tax.

[Fire]

It looks like the WildRose will be in charge in 4 years. They'll most likely have the guts to make the necessary cuts to spending. Hopefully Alberta isn't in too bad of shape when they take over.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Fire

It looks like the WildRose will be in charge in 4 years. They'll most likely have the guts to make the necessary cuts to spending. Hopefully Alberta isn't in too bad of shape when they take over.

It'll be hard to reverse some of the changes. You can't go backwards on minimum wage or the overspending that takes place. Oh well, that's future generations problem.

[VladtheImpaler]

Let's get down to the nub of this thing - do I get $5,000 if I hire a butler and do I have to pay him $15/hour?