Sept. 21-23: Blue Jays vs. Yankees Series Thread

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

No, he specifically said it would be "disgusting" if they used the money excuse. I'm simply saying that as a corporation, that's the right thing to do.

Of course it's the right thing to do for a corporation, but the baseball ownership structure and corporate structures are generally two separate worlds. The goal of most baseball ownership teams are A) Maximize the value of your franchise and B) Brand Association, and C) Bragging rights amongst their rich friends. This is why the Giants, Red Sox, Yankees, Cardinals, etc are so successful. They don't take every dollar of profit they make and distribute it via a dividend or move it to another project with a higher immediate return on investment. They invest it right back into the baseball team.

If Rogers wants to have a baseball team, they have to let their management run it like a baseball team. They currently do not. I, like most long-term Jays have are completely sick of the way this team is run. If they had not done anything this trade deadline I was pretty much done as a 30+ year fan of the team. It took a lot for me to come back last year after they did nothing at the trade deadline. The "We don't have the funds" excuse is not working on fans anymore. This is a team playing in the 3rd largest metropolitan area in North America, with a fan base stretching an entire country (35 Million strong) that eats up merchandise year and year out. They own their own tv network so they get every cent of the MLB tv deals, and were basically given their baseball stadium for ten cents on the dollar. I don't expect to be making stupid spending decisions and be given cart blanche to spend what they want, but to suggest that they can't sign a player because of lack of funds is an absolute slap in the face to any intelligent person.

There are only two other teams under corporate ownership in MLB. The Seattle Mariners and the Atlanta Braves. Both garbage franchises. Look at the complete nose dive the Braves franchise has taken since Ted Turner sold them back in 2007. I think Seattle is ran a little more akin to a normal franchise though because Nintendo functions like Labatt did for the Jays in the early 90's. Completely for marketing/branding, not concerned with how the team's bottom line will affect their financials.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Also, in my opinion the only reason this year's moves were green-lighted by Rogers is they likely felt that the public backlash was going to be extremely severe this year and may come back on their communications division. Had nothing been done, I fully expect the faces of the franchise would have ripped them in the media and demanded out in the off-season which would have severely pissed off some Rogers customers.

I'm happy they made the moves, and it's turning out great, but that is not how a successful baseball franchise. You shouldn't have to strong-arm ownership to compete in a market like Toronto. From a pure baseball perspective, these moves should have been made at last year's deadline. The team was a lot closer than they were this time around and were still missing the same components (which any other successful franchise would have addressed in the off-season rather than starting this year with the holes the Blue Jays did). When they made these moves I thought they were going after the wildcard, I never would have expected them to cover off enough ground to compete for the division title.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

With Cecil pitching like a boss lately he might have to take over the 8th inning role, Sanchez looks phased.

That was a fun win and pretty damn stressful.

Cecil got away with two strikes that were balls to avoid loading the bases. Didn't matter though as he struck out next two batters with extreme prejudice.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by troutman

Cecil got away with two strikes that were balls to avoid loading the bases. Didn't matter though as he struck out next two batters with extreme prejudice.

Cecil is just lights out and the focus isn't on him. Not sure why he excels in the 7th and 8th inning role, but falls to pieces in the 9th.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

It's the Bill Wirtz thing. They can cheap out on it, and hope to make enough through revenue sharing due to their ineptness of running the ball club....or invest in the team and have the business thrive. Maybe this recent bit of success may cause Rogers to realize the opportunity that they've missed out on previously.

I don't think anything causes Rogers to realize anything in the sports world.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I don't think anything causes Rogers to realize anything in the sports world.

Nope, and should they win the World series I don't expect Rogers to go all in for a repeat. Will keep the team as in an slowly shed pieces as their contracts run out. They will be able to point to 2015 for ten years after that.

This whole move up the MLB ladder started with the Dickey and Reyes trades and was a direct response to increased criticism of the Jays organization painted squarely on Rogers.

[whosurnabby]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Of course it's the right thing to do for a corporation, but the baseball ownership structure and corporate structures are generally two separate worlds. The goal of most baseball ownership teams are A) Maximize the value of your franchise and B) Brand Association, and C) Bragging rights amongst their rich friends. This is why the Giants, Red Sox, Yankees, Cardinals, etc are so successful. They don't take every dollar of profit they make and distribute it via a dividend or move it to another project with a higher immediate return on investment. They invest it right back into the baseball team.

If Rogers wants to have a baseball team, they have to let their management run it like a baseball team. They currently do not. I, like most long-term Jays have are completely sick of the way this team is run. If they had not done anything this trade deadline I was pretty much done as a 30+ year fan of the team. It took a lot for me to come back last year after they did nothing at the trade deadline. The "We don't have the funds" excuse is not working on fans anymore. This is a team playing in the 3rd largest metropolitan area in North America, with a fan base stretching an entire country (35 Million strong) that eats up merchandise year and year out. They own their own tv network so they get every cent of the MLB tv deals, and were basically given their baseball stadium for ten cents on the dollar. I don't expect to be making stupid spending decisions and be given cart blanche to spend what they want, but to suggest that they can't sign a player because of lack of funds is an absolute slap in the face to any intelligent person.

There are only two other teams under corporate ownership in MLB. The Seattle Mariners and the Atlanta Braves. Both garbage franchises. Look at the complete nose dive the Braves franchise has taken since Ted Turner sold them back in 2007. I think Seattle is ran a little more akin to a normal franchise though because Nintendo functions like Labatt did for the Jays in the early 90's. Completely for marketing/branding, not concerned with how the team's bottom line will affect their financials.

Great long read there man, and I wholeheartedly agree with everything... specially in a division where you have teams spending big money every off season (Yanks and Sox) , you have the damn resources, show that you can keep up with the big boys. I hope this run shows Rogers that investing more in baseball is a good financial move.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by whosurnabby

Great long read there man, and I wholeheartedly agree with everything... specially in a division where you have teams spending big money every off season (Yanks and Sox) , you have the damn resources, show that you can keep up with the big boys. I hope this run shows Rogers that investing more in baseball is a good financial move.

I don't even expect to spend with the Yankees and Red Sox, but Rogers runs this team like a small market team, but spins a completely different story in the media which they control.

Prime example is last season. Rogers behind closed doors told the players in spring training if they are in contention at the deadline, they will add pieces. Every Rogers' owned media outlet in Canada is reporting the Jays are looking to add to bolster the lineup to win the AL East. I turn on my XM Radio to the MLB network and upwards of week ahead of the deadline they are reporting that Anthopoulos has told every team in the league that he's not allowed to increase payroll and that they will not be active come deadline. I mean come on. The AL East/Wildcard were the weakest they were in years. We all saw which media was reporting the truth after the deadline.

In my opinion this year's moves were a direct action administered to counteract the impeding Bautista/Edwin/Fan blowup that would occur if nothing was done again. Baustita and Edwin would 100% have been demanding out. Not fallout Rogers was willing to deal with, especially given the club friendly option on these guys in 2016 (bargains when compared to the free agent market).

Now I guess this is getting away from the purpose of this thread, which is the Yankees/Blue Jays series, but it must be obvious to most in watching the last few series between these teams that David Price is the reason the Jays are leading the AL East. It really gets me going as a lifetime fan when the general impression is that Price will only be a Blue Jay in the long run if he's willing to take less money. That isn't even a consideration in any other market like Toronto's. If he's happy there and willing to stay, the money is available. The fact that isn't the case in Toronto is ridiculous. I can accept Price leaving to play somewhere else. I cannot accept him leaving if it comes down to money and term.

[Tyler]

I love how everyone just throws Rogers under the bus whenever they can and say they spend like a small market, when they're a top 10 spending team in the league and likely going to be increasing that substantially next year.

[puffnstuff]

Looks like Tulo took a few ground balls today, did some soft throwing and hit a little off a tee. Baby steps.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Tyler

I love how everyone just throws Rogers under the bus whenever they can and say they spend like a small market, when they're a top 10 spending team in the league and likely going to be increasing that substantially next year.

I'd bet you a lot of money Rogers will not be significantly increasing their budget next year. I'd also bet you a lot of money that when Bautista and Encarnacion's contracts end in 2016, the Jays will not reallocate that money and drop budget significantly.

2015 and 2016 are last run for a long time, and I'd say this year is our last realistic hope at a World Series. As it stands right now, the Jays starting pitching is Stroman, Osuna, and Sanchez. Hopefully they resign Price and add an arm or two, but I'm not overly confident that will happen given past history.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Sanchez is out of the setup role per TSN.

[Roof-Daddy]

Kawasaki getting the start at second over Pennington. Hits in the 9th spot.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Kawasaki getting the start at second over Pennington. Hits in the 9th spot.

I'm OK with that. I don't really see any drop off from the two. The quicker Tulo heals the better though. I don't want to go into the playoffs with Pennington starting.

Is Kawasaki eligible to play in the playoffs? I'm assuming yes as we not a waiver pickup.

[Roof-Daddy]

Yeah, Pennington has had a few errors lately anyways. I'm good with him sitting for Kawasaki too. Not sure if he's playoff eligible.

Great news about Tulo doing some fielding etc, getting him back would be huge obviously.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Would be great to wrap this up before the last Tampa series, Donaldson looks tired and Edwin's finger is a concern. Would be nice to rest them a couple of days.

[Dan02]

Estrada doesn't seem to have his best stuff tonight.

[Roof-Daddy]

Well there won't be an 8 inning shut out for Estrada in tonight's game. Rough start.

[Roof-Daddy]

Would sure be nice if MVP would heat up again. Gone a bit cold lately.

[Cuz]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Would sure be nice if MVP would heat up again. Gone a bit cold lately.

He is, but he hit that ball pretty hard which is always a good sign.