Cecil the Lion killed by American poacher

[GirlySports]

I don't agree with Kimmel's argument here. He says that at face value the dentist followed all the rules and wasn't breaking any laws but goes off on how hunting can be exciting. That's not his call. Just because you don't understand or like something doesn't mean it's wrong.

I don't understand smoking pot, sacrificial religious rituals, tribal chanting at soccer games or playing starcraft/poker for 24 hours straight. But it doesn't make it wrong.

Also the Lion has a GPS on him. Should it beep or something if it leaves the no-kill zone? Or when it walked around for 40 hours with an arrow in him, should it notify someone?

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Yep, great. This is exactly where we're headed as a society and it's frightening as hell that there's people that enjoy it and support it, including many on CP.

I don't know if you've noticed but public shaming is a full force kind of thing, you don't get to choose that it exists for extreme cases, it either becomes a prevalent part of our society (which it has already in a way) or we work together to put a stop to it.

And unfortunately too many seem to lack the understanding of it's levels of destruction and support it.

I think you are confusing two issues here. Internet bullying and Internet witch hunt/justice depending on your feelings on the topic.

My own belief is that guys like Mr. Palmer, rich guys with egos, tend to live life and act above the law. They do things like pay 50K to shoot animals, pay the fine, sexually harass staff...it's all good right? Internet justice, whether abuses or misused actually has the power to bring justice to guys like this. Like others have said, maybe this stops the next ego driven psychopath doctor or lawyer from killing.

Now I'll admit this same power can be used for evil as well. We see Internet bullying and we the consequences of that. However, there will be no stopping it. We live in an age where news, behaviour, actions travel faster then ever. With the good comes the bad.

Palmer can reap what he sowed though.

[Senator Clay Davis]

This situation isn't really the same as some other internet shaming situations. In this case this guys history pretty clearly shows a flagrant disregard for anything that prevents him from getting his trophies. Already a felon for poaching in the US, and it's not even slightly a stretch to think he's illegally trophy killed others. His apology showed his clear lack of remorse, a textbook sorry I got caught apology and not actually sincerely sorry. If he were he'd give Cecil's head and skin back, but then he'd have thrown $54,000 down the drain and loses to ego stroke. Which is why people are going hard on him, he doesn't seem like a particularly good human being.

As to internet shaming...adapt. Sucks but it's not going away, so be more thoughtful in your online presence or be prepared for the worst. It basically is impossible to stop from happening with the internet as is. Is it scary? I suppose but only if you've exposed yourself to something bad. Generally its not people going after someone for a parking ticket, usually they've said or done something quite anti-social.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Jbo

My own belief is that guys like Mr. Palmer, rich guys with egos, tend to live life and act above the law. They do things like pay 50K to shoot animals, pay the fine, sexually harass staff...it's all good right? Internet justice, whether abuses or misused actually has the power to bring justice to guys like this. Like others have said, maybe this stops the next ego driven psychopath doctor or lawyer from killing.

Aside from your absolutely ridiculous and frankly obscene caricature of "rich guys"... you know what else would bring this guys to "justice" outside the scope of the law? Cornering him in an alley and breaking his arms and legs with a baseball bat. That'll teach him, and serve as a warning to other psychopath lawyers and doctors! Are you up for that, too?

Let me be blunt: I think the next time you want to categorize people as being psychopaths, you should try looking in a mirror.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Also the Lion has a GPS on him. Should it beep or something if it leaves the no-kill zone? Or when it walked around for 40 hours with an arrow in him, should it notify someone?

As I understand it, these are monitors that need to be collected, they have battery life of less than a year usually. Which is also part of the legal issues by the poachers since they threw this collar away, obviously aware that this was illegal to do.

The GPS types that could offer more information, are very costly, thus are not commonly used.

http://www.lionconservation.org/lion-collars.html

GPS collars rely on the following elements:

Specialised, very tough belting material and electronics housing made from advanced plastics and epoxy.

A Lithium-ion battery pack, designed to last for at least 18 months, operating continuously.

A Global Positioning System (GPS) unit that calculates the exact hourly location of the collar, every hour of the night.

A memory that stores the location information on the collar.

An Iridium satellite transceiver that is used to send or receive data.

A VHF radio “beacon” that emits a radio pulse, for use with traditional telemetry equipment.

A dedicated server that receives data from the collar in the form of text messages, and translates them into an email format.

Sounds like we need to be doing some fund raising

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

As to internet shaming...adapt. Sucks but it's not going away, so be more thoughtful in your online presence or be prepared for the worst. It basically is impossible to stop from happening with the internet as is. Is it scary? I suppose but only if you've exposed yourself to something bad. Generally its not people going after someone for a parking ticket, usually they've said or done something quite anti-social.

1. It's not online presence, though. This campaign didn't have anything to do with anything the guy did online - the internet was a tool used to destroy him.

Given that he's totally unsympathetic, let me give you another example: two guys in an office make some sexist joke about their penises, I can't even recall what it was specifically. Random female office employee overhears, is offended, stands up from her cubicle and takes a photo of both of them with her phone. Posts it to twitter. Tweet goes viral. Both guys fired and publicly tarred and feathered.

That actually happened.

2. Can we stop it? Yes - legislation can go a long way here. People participating in this are often not anonymous - reviews posted on this guy's yelp page are under the reviewer's own name, twitter accounts are frequently tied to an identifiable person, and obviously there are other records. This is clearly something that could be dealt with, and at some point likely will be dealt with.

3. This quote is terrifying: "Is it scary? I suppose but only if you've exposed yourself to something bad."

Oh good. All I have to do is be perfect for the rest of my life or risk consequences that vastly outdistance the scope of my mistakes, gleefully visited upon me by a vindictive mob not accountable to anyone. Sounds fantastic.

This is like saying, "yeah, we should re-institute a mandatory death penalty sentence for shoplifting; that's only scary if you're a shoplifter."

[Coach]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Yep, great. This is exactly where we're headed as a society and it's frightening as hell that there's people that enjoy it and support it, including many on CP.

I don't know if you've noticed but public shaming is a full force kind of thing, you don't get to choose that it exists for extreme cases, it either becomes a prevalent part of our society (which it has already in a way) or we work together to put a stop to it.

And unfortunately too many seem to lack the understanding of it's levels of destruction and support it.

So how do you stop it? Do you have a suggestion? The entire globe is connected by the internet, are you suggesting we should be censoring it...somehow?

[CroFlames]

It's odd that some people, and especially people on those yelp reviews, are so appalled at the murder of another living being, yet have no problem at all torturing/ruining/murdering/flaying the dentist.

Seems to be a major disconnect. And a huge double standard.

I unreservedly disagree with the dentists actions. "Legal" or not. However, I also disagree that physical harm should be issued to him.

Are we a society of animals?! Why don't we be the bigger person, collectively.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by MattyC

So how do you stop it? Do you have a suggestion? The entire globe is connected by the internet, are you suggesting we should be censoring it...somehow?

I believe we'll see an attempt to limit it and I for one will welcome it. I think we'll see laws crafted eventually that allow law enforcement to go after the people that start public shaming campaigns against others.

But I also think we'll see a few more high profile cases of people committing suicide after internet shaming incidents before it happens.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by flameswin

I believe we'll see an attempt to limit it and I for one will welcome it. I think we'll see laws crafted eventually that allow law enforcement to go after the people that start public shaming campaigns against others.

But I also think we'll see a few more high profile cases of people committing suicide after internet shaming incidents before it happens.

How would you work that? This person lives in the US, what if the shaming was started by a person in Belgium? They're not under US jurisdiction. Now they have to prosecute thousands of people? We can't even get people to stop fighting over non-existent deities and holy places, or figure out how to get everyone on board with renewable energy, but internet shaming will bring the collective governments together in action? Yeah, I don't see it.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

...
I don't understand smoking pot, sacrificial religious rituals, tribal chanting at soccer games ...

[only half-seriously] What about "Go Flames Go"?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by MattyC

How would you work that? This person lives in the US, what if the shaming was started by a person in Belgium? They're not under US jurisdiction. Now they have to prosecute thousands of people? We can't even get people to stop fighting over non-existent deities and holy places, or figure out how to get everyone on board with renewable energy, but internet shaming will bring the collective governments together in action? Yeah, I don't see it.

It will definitely require some creativity, but for example, if you make it clear that this is tortious conduct, and the instigator of the mob continues to stoke the flame, that might be compensable - at least you should be able to sue for this stuff.

On the other hand, you can't punish someone for putting out a tweet that just happens to get picked up and goes viral, when they had no intention of creating that crapstorm.

Also worth noting that individual offenders could be prosecuted somehow; if someone posts a yelp review calling for illegal action (you should be killed; your children should be harassed), that should be something that can be dealt with by authorities. If I placed a threatening phone call to your office, that would be a matter for the police. No different here.

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Aside from your absolutely ridiculous and frankly obscene caricature of "rich guys"... you know what else would bring this guys to "justice" outside the scope of the law? Cornering him in an alley and breaking his arms and legs with a baseball bat. That'll teach him, and serve as a warning to other psychopath lawyers and doctors! Are you up for that, too?

Let me be blunt: I think the next time you want to categorize people as being psychopaths, you should try looking in a mirror.

caricature of rich guys? I doubt that people that annually make less then the 50k he spent (in a year)are going out to pop lions with there income. In order to do something like this, you need to have the means. How often do we see celebrities/politicians/CEOs get away with crimes. The Internet removes the normal proceedings and makes them accountable.

So you want me to look in a mirror and call me a psychopath? For what? Does that make the thousands and thousands commenting on this psychos? Bit of a stretch. This brought out emotions in people. It has brought awareness and it ha angered people. That is why the response has been huge, and so directed.

I'm also curious how often Internet shaming gets it wrong if anyone on that side cares to back it up. I'm sure there are cases, but it seems to me the Internet does in a couple hours what used to take police months of investigating.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jbo

I'm also curious how often Internet shaming gets it wrong if anyone on that side cares to back it up. I'm sure there are cases, but it seems to me the Internet does in a couple hours what used to take police months of investigating.

Hahaha, oh wow yeah, so the internet's not only ruthless, but also more efficient than police and courts. How awesome! Jesus man, how can you possibly support this crap?

[jayswin]

After reading your comments in this thread jbo, I believe you're the exact person I'm thinking of when I talk about the issues with public shaming.

You genuinelly believe it can be a good thing and go so far as to proclaim it faster and more efficient than actual law. That's scary and unfortunately too many think just like you.

Wow

Edit; I wouldnt go quite as far as corsi did but to actively cheer on and hope for the ruin of people rather than just hoping for appropriate legal justice.....


Well there's likely some less than flattering personality traits in your make up. I'll leave it at that.

[FlamesAddiction]

This guy bragged about his actions on the internet and is now being shamed through that same medium. It seems pretty fitting to me.

If someone went somewhere in public and did something shameful, I would expect that the people witnessing it would express that shame to the culprit. It's just in this case, the people on the internet are the public. Dr. Palmer has no one but himself to blame there.

[sharkov]

This guy managed to kill one grown up lion, 6 cubs and his business all in one shot of a gun......

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It will definitely require some creativity, but for example, if you make it clear that this is tortious conduct, and the instigator of the mob continues to stoke the flame, that might be compensable - at least you should be able to sue for this stuff.

On the other hand, you can't punish someone for putting out a tweet that just happens to get picked up and goes viral, when they had no intention of creating that crapstorm.

I disagree with the issue on the tweet. Twitter is a medium to get your message out. When you tweet something (especially with a hash tag), you are sending it out to the masses. You can't be surprised when it goes viral. That is why it is so incredibly important to think before you tweet because it can never be taken back.

I am angry about Palmer's actions and as much as I'd like to tar and feather him, I know that it is not the answer. He will forever live in Google-land as anyone who ever Googles his name will always see his misdeeds. It really is a modern version of the scarlet letter.

[burn_this_city]

I struggle to feel sympathy for certain individuals when the eye of Sauron turns their way. This isn't a case of someone shooting off a crass tweet and having the legions of SJWs attack. This is someone who engages in appalling behavior both in his professional and personal life. Poaching rare animals shouldn't be a source of pride to be bragged about, it should be shamed and ridiculed for what it is, selfish theft of irreplaceable things.

[GP_Matt]

What if we start shaming the shamers.
After an incident, the internet can identify a bunch of the people who shamed someone and then call their boss, friends and family and tell everyone that they are a bully and show them the mean things they said online.

Of course, we would have to finish by shaming ourselves, but if we owned up to it publicly and ruined our own lives it would end the cycle.

In all seriousness though, I am against shaming, especially when the person is accused of a crime in a country that will investigate and punish appropriately. If the crime is committed in a poor country with a corrupt legal system then I can see the justification for shaming.

In the past we would shame the act, but now we are going so much further and trying to permanently ruin peoples lives.