Flames Player Lists: Core Pieces, Support Pieces & Expendable

[Karl]

Originally Posted by New Era

Untouchables: No one. Anyone is available for the right price.

Core: Bennett, Monahan, Gaudreau, Brodie

Primary support (players still critical to the team's interest and require overpayment to move): Giordano, Hudler, Colborne

Secondary support (players who are replaceable, so available for the right price): Jooris, Granlund, Bouma, Russell, Wideman, Hiller, Ramo

Trade fodder: Raymond, Backlund, Bollig, Glencross, Smid, Engelland, Diaz

Primary prospects (those I could see with the Flames so not inclined to deal): Poirier, Ferland, Arnold, Agostino, Jankowski, Klimchuk, Harrison, Smith, Wotherspoon, Culkin, Hickey, Gilmour, Sieloff, Rafikov, Gillies, MacDonald

There are some prospects that I think we need to see a little more of to get a better read on where they fit, but those are mostly the guys just drafted. All the rest should be available if they can improve the team.

Would you not include Stajan & McGrattan in your trade fodder, or do you not think they should be traded?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Karl

Would you not include Stajan & McGrattan in your trade fodder, or do you not think they should be traded?

Stajan is definitely fodder. McGrattan is another story. I'd like to see the team keep him around in some capacity, I'm just not sure what that is. Assistant to the Strength and Conditioning coach?

[JohnnySkittles]

Originally Posted by David Struch

Gaudreau – Bennett - Poirier
Granlund - Monahan – Baertschi
Klimchuck – Jankowski – Jooris
Ferland - Arnold – Smith

Giordano - Brodie
Rafikov - Wotherspoon
Culkin - Sieloff

Gillies
McDonald

What season of NHL 15 is this?

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Yea he looked horribly out of place against the big bad defending Stanley Cup Champion LA Kings last week.

Hell, he pulled a "this guy scored" on them.

[wired]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

It's not so much your opinion that is messed up, it's your reasoning that just doesn't seem right. Stajan has been stupid? Glencross is checked out on the team? What's brought you to those conclusions?

Glencros....watching him play over the last few weeks.
Stajan....same as above.
Both players have, at times played lights out, but I believe its time to part ways with them.
And I would also like to add, I just dont like the guys....

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

It's not so much your opinion that is messed up, it's your reasoning that just doesn't seem right. Stajan has been stupid? Glencross is checked out on the team? What's brought you to those conclusions?

Except for handing the NYI a 2 min 5 on 3 (which, admittedly was remarkably stupid for an NHL vet center) Stajan has been fine. He's turned the 4th line from Chinese fire drill into a fairly reliable one that can hold their own defensively. Bollig has been better lately too.

Glencross is kind of hot and cold lately. Plays with grit/physicality and chips in offensively, but makes some really questionable puck decisions and takes the occasional selfish penalty too. Just not enough consistency to justify being kept. If he waived the NTC and got shipped out I personally wouldn't bat an eye.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by wired

imo...Iggy should not have been re-signed to his last contract. Flames should have traded him at the deadline that year

Are you serious? Iggy signed that contract at 28 and the Flames were in the midst of continuously making the playoffs. The flames got him to sign the same cap hit with 5 year term a full year before free agency. The team would go on to make the playoffs after that extension was signed. No one wanted him gone at that time

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I didn't mean to push your buttons so badly, so sorry I struck a nerve. Perhaps I could have worded my reply better - I guess I meant to say that I don't see how any of the five players you mentioned can be considered support pieces for the club yet. Yes, it's nice that we have prospects in the pipeline coming through the system with promising futures that could *turn into* support pieces in the future. But I guess I just don't see the five you listed as being there yet, at least not above and beyond any other prospects coming up who aren't named Sam Bennett.

Other people could have listed another list of five players, each with a bullet point summation (say, Jankowski, Ferland, Kulak, Klimchuk, and Weatherspoon) and I would still take issue with them being part of a support group. For me, putting them in that group assumes capabilities at the NHL that none of them have demonstrated yet.

Again, sorry that I struck a nerve.

No worries.

I don't think a prospect can be either core or support by definition, but a guy like Bennett is untouchable because of his projection. I draw the line at Bennett though, so the next four or five prospects go into the next group as players you retain if you can because you see them either being full time support players, or even core players down the road.

Prospects that don't make the core or support group have value, but could be moved to add value at positions where the team is short, or in a larger deal to add a ready to play core or support player.

I see those 5 as being on the biggest archs (along with Poirier) so I'd be more hesitant to move them.

Granlund, Klimchuk, Baertchi and others are good young players that project well, but I'd move them in a deal that helps the franchise.

[FBI]

I have a sneaking feeling that bingo renamed my topic lol

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by FBI

I have a sneaking feeling that bingo renamed my topic lol

Yeah sorry about that ... read the responses below and how it was shaping out, and I wanted it to look more official so it wouldn't get buried. I see this as a legacy topic for years.

You just know each NHL team has a list like this of their own.

So far it sure looks like a good idea to break your list away and start it's own topic!

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

I present your 2018 Western Conference Finalist Calgary Flames!!!

New Guy - Bennett - New Guy

Gaudreau - Monahan - Poirier

Baertschi - Backlund - Ferland

Glencross - Bouma - New Guy


New Guy - Brodie

Giordano - New Guy

Russel - Wotherspoon


I tried to fill each roster spot from within the organization by the player best suited to it. The spots labeled "New Guy" are the positions for which I don't think there is a realistic candidate in-house.

Thats the group I would build around. Nobody on that list is good enought to be 'untouchable'. Everybody not on this list should, IMO, be put on the market to acquire the "New Guys".

How is New Guy suppose to play 5 different positions?

[Heavy Jack]

Flames Core D:

Giordano - Start with a guy who has shown he is ready to lead and in a big way at this level. Gio has been amazing and not just this year but I'd say from the start of the half season we played a couple years back. This guy needs to be locked up for 5-6 more years and I'd say he'll still be an impact player for most of that contract.

Brodie - So many other-team-hockey-fans were calling this guy a joke last year. I hated getting into conversations about brodie with other fans because they basically said he was a wash come next year. When I said he was young still they would laugh and say he's been in the league for like 4 years and is on his way out. Those same people don't have hockey talks around the water cooler with me anymore hahaha -- This guy is going to transition nicely into Gio's spot over the next 5 years.

Russell - We can't let this guy go. Still relatively young and playing his best hockey ever, plays a smart detailed game mainly due to his lack of size for a D. Blocks shots, good first pass, high hockey IQ -- he makes up for his lack of size in so many different areas. This is a D I think can stay in the TOP 4 for quite some time.

Expendable at an overpayment:

Wideman - I don't think we let him go until his contract year. Eventually, with the D prospects starting to grow, we will get rid of Wideman. But right now I don't think we need to get rid of a guy who is on pace to smashing a lot of his career records. He has defensive gaffs yes but with the team looking so well it makes sense to keep the top 4 in tact going down the stretch. If we find ourselves on the outside looking in at the trade deadline this line of thinking may change and definitely in his final year of his contract but for now lets keep the top 4 D rolling.

Expendable:

Smid - I love the compete of this guy and I have nothing against his time as a Flame I just think we could upgrade our 5-6 D.

Engelland - Again, nothing against him, he's even looked to be hitting his stride as we reach the mid-way point, and of the three D currently up -- Smid/Diaz/Engs -- I want to see him dealt last but I honestly think we have the space to upgrade the bottom D pairing.

Diaz - As advertized really, quiet game, makes mistakes but manages to make some good plays through-out a game as well, just seems to kinda be a dime a dozen player though. Easily can replace him with the younger D coming up.

Forwards:

Gaudreau - I can't say in my time as a Flames fan I have seen a player as dynamic and exciting as Johnny, he is a game changer and from what Gio has been saying a player who wants the puck at the big times in a game. We are in for quite the decade of hockey with Johnny leading the way offensively.

Bennett - All this excitement and we haven't even seen this kid play outside of an electrifying pre-season. This kid has tonnes of jam in his game to go along with elite offensive abilities. Can't wait till he is healthy.

Monahan - When you start to go through the line-up of players we have its astonishing to see the depth we have created through the draft in such a short period of time. Money is the perfect shut-down center to go toe-toe with the greatest lines in the league. This kid is a game changer too -- already has 3 OT goals in a tenth of the games Iggy (6) had for Calgary.

Jooris - Most have this kid in an overpay/good hockey trade scenario and I realize he has given us such a small sample size but I think this kid is a player. I don't think I have seen anyone play with as much determination along the boards, he has no quit and plays like every game is his last. To go with that he has a hatty too in his rookie season just like Johnny and has shown some soft hands around the net. Jooris is a keeper.

Hudler - Look no further than Jiri Hudler when searching for a reason why so many rookies have looked great for the Flames this year and last. We need this guy teaching our young stars the ropes over the next few years, its invaluable experience.

Bouma - You win with players like Bouma, sign him up long-term IMHO.

Expendable at an overpayment:

Backlund - Feel bad for this guy and would honestly hate to see him go but he definitely could be shopped with the center depth we are generating.

Granlund - We have a lot of players like Granny and I'd hate to see him go but again we could easily shop him if the price was right. He's the least of this group I'd like to see moved.

Colborne - I really don't want to see this guy go. He cares, plays the game with passion and I think he is games away from going on a breakout stretch of hockey. A bit more size in the off-season could turn him into a slick power forward for this team. Move only if it fills a greater need.

Expendable:

Stajan - This guy has gone from zero to hero in Cowtown. I love Stajan, think he is one of hockey's good guys, but honestly we should not be paying a 4th line center that kind of money. I want to see him go to a place where he can play a bigger role but that said I think he has been a bigger addition to the Flames than many have given him credit for through out the years and his dedication to the game of hockey is apparent.

Byron - I say sell high on this guy. I love his overall game, I wish he had more finish, but there are better players in our system waiting to come up.

Glencross - Sell high, I think he has been given a lot of grief from the CP users this year and has actually given us some great hockey. There is a reason Hartely has an A on his jersey. But I think with how deep we are on the left side that we could turn Glenny into picks which would service this club better at this point.

Bollig - Don't hate the guy but he needs to move over for a guy like Ferland.

McGrattan - Bye big guy - one of the best enforcers we have had but the era is coming to an end.

Jones - I don't think he has lived up to that contract and he is replaceable. The biggest need he is filling for us is his right handed shot but I think we need to replace this guy sooner rather than later.

Raymond - I don't know, I think trading a guy you just signed in the off-season sends a wrong message to the players in the league. At the same time if you get a good deal on the table for this guy you have to hope BT pulls the trigger.

Goalies
Ramo - I think we deal him or his rights at some point. Kari has been so awesome, I love his demeanor and his attitude, but I think Ortio replaces him next year.

Hiller - Keep for the duration of his contract, maybe extend him for one more year and let Ortio take over by the 2018/2019 season.

Ortio - I think he is really starting to establish himself as a big time goalie at the AHL level. He needs to keep running this year as a starter, hopefully go on a good run in the A and the come up to be a back-up getting the same starts Rams has been getting.

Prospects who are untouchable ATM:
Poirier
Arnold
Culkin
Wotherspoon

Some prospects who can be packaged:
Baertschi
Hanowski
Kulak
Agostino

My two cents on it.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

How is New Guy suppose to play 5 different positions?

[Iggy Snipe]

For me our only untouchables on Calgary are:

Giordano- Captain, and a big time leader through hard work. In his prime right now and can help us win now, and in the future. Defenceman tend to have a longer expiry date.

Hudler- Point per game player this season, and meshes well with the young talent. Him and Gaudreau have been lights out. At 4 million dollars per season, there isnt any better deal out there. He is definitely untouchable at that price.

Gaudreau- He has proven to be exactly what the hype was. So smart, so talented, so gifted. ELITE level talent here. Will be a point per game player in the NHL. Not many have the talent this kid does. Remember he is in year one. He could score 30 this year.

Monahan- Wasn't sure what to expect after a great rookie season. Looks to me like he is going to get another 20+ goals, and is playing great two way hockey. He is going to be something special. He is so young and has so much to offer. Plays like a veteran.

Bennet- Only because we have not seen him at the NHL level yet. He has a lot of potential, but who knows. Can not judge a book until you have read it. Looking forward to seeing him play.

Brodie- Had a stellar start to this season and has improved every year. The lights out play by Giordano has helped him a lot, and i know they feed off of each other. Lately Brodie has been giving the puck up a lot and using his backhand to pass the puck constantly. Definitely has some bad habits and is a little low on confidence right now, but he has shown what he can do.

After this, anyone can be dealt to better the team. Literally anyone.

We need to upgrade our Bottom D-pairing. Smid being hurt doesn't help, but Diaz is awful. He hurts the team when he is on the ice.

Stajan has become expendable. He brings nothing to this young team. That penalty against the Islanders would prove to be the difference in the game. He also looks out of place on a young, fast team.


So Stajan and Diaz to me and the current weakest links on the Calgary Flames. Diaz will be out as soon as Smid is back, so it will take care of itself. Stajan on the other hand, that would be a tough contract to trade. It was a bad re-signing to begin with. He has played for Calgary for almost 6 years, and has scored 37 goals total. Those are some brutal stats. He is useless. I like him as a person, and I feel for what he went through, and is still going through, but he is not a good fit for this team or maybe any team. 3.5 million per season should get you a lot more than an average of 7.5 goals per season.

[MacFlame]

Core Pieces:

Monahan
Gaudreau
Bennett
Giordano
Brodie
Colborne

-I see Colborne as a pairing with Monahan and Gaudreau as a pairing with Bennett. Guadreau and Bennett being the main scoring line while Monahan and Colborne being the second PP unit which plays against the other teams top lines. The question for me is how does the third man on those lines get added? Trade or from within? Can two of Porier, Sven, or Ferland move in to claim those two spots (within the next 1-2 years) or will the Flames management have to acquire via trade/free agency in the future? I don't see any of them as being a part of the core, however.

I could also see Culkin or Wotherspoon (one, not both)being a part of the core moving forward, but, again, that all depends on their progression over the next couple of years.

I hope for competition between Gilles and Ortio for the number one job in the next 2-3 years. Based on progression, there's potential for one of them to be a part of the core as well.

The competition in the organization is excellent right now, but will make for some very tough decisions moving forward.

Based on this,

Support Pieces:

Sven (could move down)
Ferland (could move down)
Porier (could move down)
Bouma
Russell
Backlund
Ortio (could move up or down)
Gilles(could move up or down)
Wotherspoon (could move up or down)
Culkin (could move up or down)

Expendable:

Everyone else

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Iggy Snipe

Stajan on the other hand, that would be a tough contract to trade. It was a bad re-signing to begin with. He has played for Calgary for almost 6 years, and has scored 37 goals total. Those are some brutal stats. He is useless. I like him as a person, and I feel for what he went through, and is still going through, but he is not a good fit for this team or maybe any team. 3.5 million per season should get you a lot more than an average of 7.5 goals per season.

That's some impressive cherry picking.

1) Part of two seasons (this season, and after he arrived via trade) and a shortened lockout season != almost 6 seasons

2) His Goal/G average prorates to 10 goals per season, not 7.5

3) His cap hit is $3.125M, not $3.5M. In a league where an average cap hit is $2.65M ($61 cap median/23 man roster), less than $500K over the average does not make a contract some untradable albatross

[FlameZilla]

Most people have Engelland, Diaz and Smid in the list of Expendables (and rightfully so IMO).

Engelland has been alright on the bottom pairing, is signed to a silly longterm (unmovable) contract and is one of Treliving's first personnel moves. Chances are he's here for the duration of his contract. That's no tragedy.

Diaz is waiver fodder.

Smid is the only one out of that list I could see us realistically move. He hasn't played well enough to cement himself as part of the future, and is enough of a 'name' that I believe we could get a decent return for him from a team desperate for veteran defensive help. Wotherspoon is immediately ready to replace him and would probably be an upgrade, especially long term.

[PeteMoss]

Has everyone ripping on Stajan and calling him expendable noticed how our 4th line no longer sucks since he's returned?

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Has everyone ripping on Stajan and calling him expendable noticed how our 4th line no longer sucks since he's returned?

This is a very good point. The fourth line has been way better with him stabilizing it.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by FBI

As requested by Bingo, moved this to a new thread. Here's my take on our untouchables and not so untouchables:

Instead we could say who our list of untouchables are:
- Gaudreau
- Monahan
- Bennett
- Giordano
- Brodie
- Poirier

Who I would prefer to keep but would move if involved in great return:
- Colborne
- Backlund
- Baertschi
- Russell
- Hudler
- Bouma
- Granlund
- Jooris

Who we don't mind being moved at all:
- Wideman
- Glencross
- Byron
- Jones
- Stajan
- Raymond
- Bollig
- Smid
- Engelland
- Diaz

Didn't think about goalies yet just because I don't really know who is better yet. I'd kinda keep them both in the middle category but I'm also interested in what Ortio can do as well so I'm a little stuck on those.

Good OP. I agree with most of the classification with the exception of the following:

Colborne, Bouma and Jooris - I would move them up into untouchable category for the time being.

Colborne is all about potential – he can become the next Joe Thornton if developed properly. We do not have too many big players to spare, unfortunately.
Bouma is all about energy and work ethics - he works so freakin hard every game, it's contagious. The classic 4th liner every team needs.
Jooris - this guy is all about youthful drive and the good things that come out of it. He could become the face of the youngsters of this team. I don't know if he's been a diamond in the rough or is simply having a great season that shall pass. All I am saying. I wouldn't trade him away now.

Backlund and Baertschi - I would move them both down to the "trade away" category.

Backlund - he's just not the right player for this team. I never understood all of the optimism and expectations about this guy. Look at the first round of the 2007 Draft - most of the players selected ahead of him have already fully developed save for a couple. For whatever reason, Backlund comes up, shows some good plays and immediately gets injured. Send him to Detroit. He still has time left and could become a productive player under Babcock's coaching system.

Baertschi - I think Sven's confidence has been broken here. Honestly, I liked this guy's potential and even bought a signed framed poster of him (lol). Again, don't keep him at bay. Trade him away if there are suitors, let the guy either prove himself on other team that could be more suitable for his style of play or else...