Dilemma: Supporting the Calgary Flames after Mount Polley mine disaster

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I was told that the Gulf coast of the US states would be a sludgy mess that would take generations to clean up after the BP oil blob hit the shore line. A couple of months after the deep water oil disaster nobody could locate the blob.

Not to ruin your complete denial of things that negatively affect the environment, but the Gulf coast isn't clean, and likely won't be for years and years. They know exactly where the blob is (settled at the bottom of the ocean). It's causing pretty significant damage to this day, but genetic mutations to eroding the coast line as oil continues washing up on shores.

That was four years ago and it's not close to being clean. These things are often as bad as environmentalists make them out to be.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by fotze

Also had to go back in time to teach them.

This further illustrates why I would like "the oilpatch' to distance itself from mining. There is so little from the drilling of wells that compares to open pit mining. Mining must snicker under the sheets at night about how much crap is directed at them vs oilpatch when mining is the true pig of the environment.

This is a BC disaster from a company run by people from BC whose profits go largely to BC and sanctioned by the BC government. We have enough actual crap in the province so don't be plopping your crap in our yard.

Edwards does not seem to appear on the board of directors of the company. Largely old white UBC grads.

http://www.imperialmetals.com/s/Directors.asp

Also, there is plenty to dislike Edwards over, such as being a meddling owner of the Flames or this disaster that he would have a lot more involvement in.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1446546/st...s-cnrl-admits/

If you are going to pin a disaster on Edwards, get the right one.

I was going to make this post, and saw it was already here.

1) No way Murray Edwards was involved in the decisions that led to this. He is involved at CNRL, but no way he has time for design decisions on a mine.

2) The conversation society should be having is what caused this, and what industry practices and government regulations can prevent it from happening again.

[chopper89]

Maybe you should look into Aquilini's business dealings. You might find no billionaire's business practices meet your standards and you'll have to start cheering for your local church league. Or, like most have suggested, try and separate in your mind the sport you enjoy from the politics and business dealings of it's owners.

All that said, it's completely your choice and I do respect the idea of not putting your dollars in someone's pockets (albeit very indirectly) that you feel has hurt your community.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by chopper89

Maybe you should look into Aquilini's business dealings. You might find no billionaire's business practices meet your standards and you'll have to start cheering for your local church league. Or, like most have suggested, try and separate in your mind the sport you enjoy from the politics and business dealings of it's owners.

All that said, it's completely your choice and I do respect the idea of not putting your dollars in someone's pockets (albeit very indirectly) that you feel has hurt your community.

to the bolded, all the Flames profits stay with the Flames, so the few dollars he decides not to spend really won't make a difference to Murray Edwards unless he decides to sell his stake in the team.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

It's the oil companies fault. We taught BC how to make tailings ponds, BC never knew how to make a tailings pond before tarsands investors started buying stock in companies there.

What exactly do you think the mining companies have been doing with the slurry of water and mined material that can't easily be seperated for the last 100-150 years? Long before Oil sands became prominent anyway. Historically, It's either been put it into a tailings pond or pumped directly into a river, lake or onto the land.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by mennoknight

I don't usually get involved with arguments like this, but the pine beetle has devastated northern BC. The pine trees are probably ponderosa, knowing the area, which the beetle has only recently begun to attack - its primary target was Lodgepole.



Well. Fire is a natural thing, in fact - aforementioned pine trees need fire for their cones to open. The prevention of forest fires is actually one of the main reasons the beetle has been so bad. If the forest were allowed to naturally refresh and diversify then it may be more resistant to bugs like that.

So how big is the impact area of the Polley Mine disaster and how does it compare to impact area of a forest fire.

Currently: Just in the prince George Fire Area (Polley Mines is in this area) there are 26 wildfires burning covering a total of 145,071 Hectares.

These are natural events that kill wild life, destroys wild life habitat, pollutes waters , causes erosion and potential flooding and it takes nature 8-10 years to recover. I can not even start to imagine the impact the release of carbon is having on global warming.

The biggest difference is that due to the economic activity generated by and roads built to service the Polley Mines there are more people involved. If it were not for the people involved and quadruple whole Mount Polley were on fire it would not even merit a mention.

22km Tennakihi M/L, Meslinika Drainage
Red Deer Creek
Forres Mountain
Mount McAllister
Euchiniko Lakes


all have more than 10,000 hecatre on fire...

For some perspective Nose Hill Park covers 1,126 Hectares.


Maybe the Calgary FLAMES should change their name in light of making light of this these disasters.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

What exactly do you think the mining companies have been doing with the slurry of water and mined material that can't easily be seperated for the last 100-150 years? Long before Oil sands became prominent anyway. Historically, It's either been put it into a tailings pond or pumped directly into a river, lake or onto the land.

That's the joke.

[mennoknight]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

So how big is the impact area of the Polley Mine disaster and how does it compare to impact area of a forest fire.

Currently: Just in the prince George Fire Area (Polley Mines is in this area) there are 26 wildfires burning covering a total of 145,071 Hectares.

These are natural events that kill wild life, destroys wild life habitat, pollutes waters , causes erosion and potential flooding and it takes nature 8-10 years to recover. I can not even start to imagine the impact the release of carbon is having on global warming.

The biggest difference is that due to the economic activity generated by and roads built to service the Polley Mines there are more people involved. If it were not for the people involved and quadruple whole Mount Polley were on fire it would not even merit a mention.

22km Tennakihi M/L, Meslinika Drainage
Red Deer Creek
Forres Mountain
Mount McAllister
Euchiniko Lakes


all have more than 10,000 hecatre on fire...

For some perspective Nose Hill Park covers 1,126 Hectares.


Maybe the Calgary FLAMES should change their name in light of making light of this these disasters.

This is something I didn't really understand until forestry school...but fire leads to a healthier forest in the long term. I don't think things like Polley do, unless I'm missing some sort of new fangled research. In the short term yes, fire kills things and puts stuff in the air. It also cleanses and renews an ecosystem, where a mine tailings disaster introduces foreign elements into a system which may never recover.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

So how big is the impact area of the Polley Mine disaster and how does it compare to impact area of a forest fire.

Currently: Just in the prince George Fire Area (Polley Mines is in this area) there are 26 wildfires burning covering a total of 145,071 Hectares.

These are natural events that kill wild life, destroys wild life habitat, pollutes waters , causes erosion and potential flooding and it takes nature 8-10 years to recover. I can not even start to imagine the impact the release of carbon is having on global warming.

The biggest difference is that due to the economic activity generated by and roads built to service the Polley Mines there are more people involved. If it were not for the people involved and quadruple whole Mount Polley were on fire it would not even merit a mention.

22km Tennakihi M/L, Meslinika Drainage
Red Deer Creek
Forres Mountain
Mount McAllister
Euchiniko Lakes


all have more than 10,000 hecatre on fire...

For some perspective Nose Hill Park covers 1,126 Hectares.


Maybe the Calgary FLAMES should change their name in light of making light of this these disasters.

Dude ... you're kind of embarrassing yourself at this point. Forest fires have the same impact as a tailings pond leaking its contents all over the land? The Pine Beetle isn't an issue?

Just stop. It's ok to disagree, but don't make yourself look like a fool to do it.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by nik-

...Just stop. It's ok to disagree, but don't make yourself look like a fool to do it.

Ricardodw is a real life caricature.

[Flames89]

Don't forget to hate your government for having inadequate permitting and oversight capabilities (a tailings dam is a basic structure. The blame lies not only on the owners, but also the government), and then don't forget to hate yourself for voting them in.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Sounds pretty conclusive that Edwards is not directly to blame and the Flames franchise shouldn't have to pay for a BC Mining company's mistakes.

I love how there's much discussion and many opinions being thrown around on this thread, yet the original poster has decided not to defend his stance now that the debate is about environmental impact and not slandering the flames.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by YYC in LAX

Me and my vehicle at the top of Mt. Seymour yesterday.



Now it's your turn to put your Willy where your Wonka is.

--

For those that took the time to consider why something like this would impact me and used the human qualities of empathy and sympathy, thanks a million.

I'm not some lukewarm fan. I ran my own blog site on Flames prospects, I had Heat season tickets, I go to every Flames/Canucks game at Roger's arena. I buy my parents Flames tickets for Christmas every year. I have a Gaudreauby Baker T-shirt (from his sophomore season), and I hang out at the side of the building to try to get signatures after the games.

I BLEED RED.

I'm also an avid outdoorsman. I love this beautiful place. I have the absolute privilege of biking through old growth rainforests, kayaking in crystal clear bays, and swimming in mountain fed glacial lakes. The landscape informs who I am.

When our own business leaders, equally responsible for something I love, wind up being the money behind a tragedy like this, it gives me pause. It makes me ask the question of how we hold the billionaires accountable for what they do with our investments, and with the landscape we all share.

I didn't get as much support as I was hoping, but I can only blame myself. Had I considered my audience a little more I made my OP, I could have avoided a lot of this inflammatory bs. My bad, obviously.

I do plan on writing both the Flames organization and the NHL over this disaster. The NHL wants to show that it takes the environment seriously (http://www.nhl.com/green/report/) and I think they should hold their ownership group at least somewhat accountable for their actions while they are part of the league.

If anyone else feels the need to take some sort of action over what happened, any other ideas are fully welcome.

For those of you who are caught in the loop of comparison, trying to argue that forest fires are worse, or that the BP disaster was worse, or that it's not as bad as the oilsands, or that BC is worse than AB...this type of circular argument distracts from the point. Whether some other tragedy was worse or not shouldn't take away from the impact this disaster is having and is going to have.

And to the few of you who remembered all those good hockey contributions I've made over the years and stepped in to defend my character, thank you, but I shouldn't have put myself in a position for personal attacks.

[heep223]

Any die-hard Flames fan in Canuck land is a beaut in my eyes. Just remember that Murray Edwards himself probably feels very, very badly and shameful about this. He is very community minded and a human being.

[Textcritic]

FYI: That is a fantastic picture.

Originally Posted by thymebalm

When our own business leaders, equally responsible for something I love, wind up being the money behind a tragedy like this, it gives me pause. It makes me ask the question of how we hold the billionaires accountable for what they do with our investments, and with the landscape we all share.

I don't think that anyone who has posted here would disagree with the concept forwarded about keeping owners responsible for environmental damages. However, what a lot of posters have pointed out is that assessing the blame for situations like this is immensely more complicated than merely making determinations based on whomever happens to be the majority stakeholders. Simply put: How much do you know and can you prove about Murray Edwards' direct involvement with he day-to-day operations of Imperial Metals? Shouldn't we gather some information about his own involvement before making him culpable?

Originally Posted by thymebalm

...I do plan on writing both the Flames organization and the NHL over this disaster. The NHL wants to show that it takes the environment seriously (http://www.nhl.com/green/report/) and I think they should hold their ownership group at least somewhat accountable for their actions while they are part of the league.

But practically speaking, what could the NHL possibly do? Never mind the fact that there is still the problem of this significant leap you have made from Edwards' ownership of stakes to his direct responsibility for this disaster, how does the League even begin to go about policing its owners for environmental ethics in businesses in which the NHL has virtually no direct involvement?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

For those that took the time to consider why something like this would impact me and used the human qualities of empathy and sympathy, thanks a million.

I'm not some lukewarm fan. I ran my own blog site on Flames prospects, I had Heat season tickets, I go to every Flames/Canucks game at Roger's arena. I buy my parents Flames tickets for Christmas every year. I have a Gaudreauby Baker T-shirt (from his sophomore season), and I hang out at the side of the building to try to get signatures after the games.

I BLEED RED.

I'm also an avid outdoorsman. I love this beautiful place. I have the absolute privilege of biking through old growth rainforests, kayaking in crystal clear bays, and swimming in mountain fed glacial lakes. The landscape informs who I am.

When our own business leaders, equally responsible for something I love, wind up being the money behind a tragedy like this, it gives me pause. It makes me ask the question of how we hold the billionaires accountable for what they do with our investments, and with the landscape we all share.

I didn't get as much support as I was hoping, but I can only blame myself. Had I considered my audience a little more I made my OP, I could have avoided a lot of this inflammatory bs. My bad, obviously.

I do plan on writing both the Flames organization and the NHL over this disaster. The NHL wants to show that it takes the environment seriously (http://www.nhl.com/green/report/) and I think they should hold their ownership group at least somewhat accountable for their actions while they are part of the league.

If anyone else feels the need to take some sort of action over what happened, any other ideas are fully welcome.

For those of you who are caught in the loop of comparison, trying to argue that forest fires are worse, or that the BP disaster was worse, or that it's not as bad as the oilsands, or that BC is worse than AB...this type of circular argument distracts from the point. Whether some other tragedy was worse or not shouldn't take away from the impact this disaster is having and is going to have.

And to the few of you who remembered all those good hockey contributions I've made over the years and stepped in to defend my character, thank you, but I shouldn't have put myself in a position for personal attacks.

This is a much better post than the OP and I give you credit for that.

And while your passion is clearly evident, you are still misguided with respect to your anger and your blame.

In the OP you blamed Albertans. Though you rescinded that, you are still trying to blame 'billionaires'.

Several posts attempted to help you see who some of the people and groups that might be responsible, or contributed to the problem, were. But you ignored them and swept them into your pile of circular arguments.

If you want to make a difference, understand the problem.

Hating or blaming others, based on prejudice, or without understanding who is really at fault, will get you nowhere.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by fotze

Also, is there a site that should who the major owners are in the stock of this company? i.e. do I have mutual funds that own some of this?

See below. And yes, some of your mutual funds / ETFs may own it. Franklin, Blackrock, Elliot & Page, Vanguard, Invesco, BMO, Dimensional, Scotia etc etc are all fund management companies.

Note that Murray Edwards only owns 7.3% of this company. Does that change your view OP? Like others are saying, he has nothing to do with running the company and the kind of detail/decision-making that would lead to an environmental disaster like this. Like an earlier poster said, you may be better off joining a lobby group for better regulations as opposed to targeting 1 minority investor in 1 company who isn't involved in operations.

This is all public information btw.

EDIT: He owns >30% through holding companies as per another poster

Spoiler!

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

When our own business leaders, equally responsible for something I love, wind up being the money behind a tragedy like this, it gives me pause. It makes me ask the question of how we hold the billionaires accountable for what they do with our investments, and with the landscape we all share.



I do plan on writing both the Flames organization and the NHL over this disaster. The NHL wants to show that it takes the environment seriously (http://www.nhl.com/green/report/) and I think they should hold their ownership group at least somewhat accountable for their actions while they are part of the league.

I'm trying to figure out what your end goal in this is.

Murray Edwards is an investor in Imperial Metals. He doesn't run the company, nor does he work for it in any way, he just writes the cheques hoping to get a return on investment. How can you genuinely blame him for the disaster?

How should the NHL hold an owner accountable for making an investment in a company that caused a disaster?

As said, he is one of the biggest players in the oil sands, so why stop supporting him now? The oil sands have done significantly more damage than this, so why now? What is different? Are the oil sands not a problem because they aren't your backyard?

Will you also be writing letters to Kicking Horse Resort? Nakiska? Fernie Alpine? The University of Saskatchewan?

I'm not trying to degrade the point you're trying to make, I just want to understand:

Why now? And why take it out on the Flames?

[Reggie28]

A few interesting points, take them for what they are worth.

Edwards holds 36% of Imperial Metals stock and is the controlling shareholder.

Edwards and other "Alberta power brokers" organized a private fundraiser for Premier Clark and raised over a million dollars.

The water held within the dam occasionally did not meet safe drinking water levels when tested over the past few years.

Clean up costs may exceed 400 million, and Imperial has indicated they will pay, but they will need revenue from operations to fund the clean up.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

As said, he is one of the biggest players in the oil sands, so why stop supporting him now? The oil sands have done significantly more damage than this, so why now? What is different? Are the oil sands not a problem because they aren't your backyard?

Guaranteed that it is because Mount Polley is in his backyard. When it happens where you live, it is a disaster. When it happens elsewhere, it is a statistic. But that is also natural human nature. I don't really fault thymebalm for his reaction, even if I (since it isn't in my backyard) think he is getting a little hysterical in his reaction to it.