[News] Caps fire McPhee and Oates

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I did read somewhere that Burke wants a GM with good drafting analysis. McPhee certainly would qualify on that front. That said I hope Burke goes with someone else.

1998 - 1 player who played over 100 games out of 10 picks

1999 - 1 player who played more than 100 games out 10 picks (this draft was particularly bad even by McPhee standards, 5 picks in the first 37)

2000 - 2 out 6 picks played more than 100 games, better draft

2001 - 2 out of 10 played 100 games in the NHL

2002 - 3 out of 13 played 100 games (all first round picks)

2003 - 1 out 6 played 100 games

2004 - 4 out 13 played 100 games, pretty good draft by McPhee's terrible drafting standards, although 3 of the 4 were 1st rounders.

2005 - 1 out 7 played 100 games

2006 - 4 out 10, McPhee's best draft.

2007 - 1 out of 10

2008 - 2 out of 8

2009 - 3 out 7, his best draft

McPhee is somewhere around terrible in terms of drafting.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I'm not sure why Weisbrod was let go? I'm with you that I liked his way of drafting.

The only reasons I can think of of why he was let go are just rumours, but if true I could see why. Rumour one was that he was in charge of the return they got for JBO and Iggy. Other rumour ( actually came out of his mouth) that if Janko was not available when they traded down that he would have selected Seiloff with the 18th pick. I think he was trying to boost seiloff stock, but you never know.

He was also going to trade the 1st pick because he didn't think there were any players worthwhile until he saw Jankowski. That draft year has turned out pretty good and there were some very worthy picks available for us. That shows a complete misread of the draft that year.

As for trying to boost Seiloff's stock, both Weisbrod and Feaster talked to the fans like they were dealing with know nothings from Florida. It was insulting.

[trackercowe]

I think those are actually pretty good numbers comparatively. And 1999 was a complete bust for everyone, only a handful of players actually did anything in the league.

So McPhee drafted 25 players to play more than 100 games, and that makes him a terrible GM? Well Holland only drafted 21 in the same period of time, so I guess by that assertion he must be even worse.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Trading the first wouldn't necessarily have meant he was misreading the draft. If we had Kyle Turris instead of Jankowski would that have been a huge mistake? You can't criticize that potential move because you don't know what they would've gotten back for the pick.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Trading the first wouldn't necessarily have meant he was misreading the draft. If we had Kyle Turris instead of Jankowski would that have been a huge mistake? You can't criticize that potential move because you don't know what they would've gotten back for the pick.

It was his reasoning that it was a poor draft, not necessarily the trading of the pick.
It also showed a misreading of where the team was. Trading the first should be left to contending teams.

But yeah, two mistakes in reasoning with us ending up with Turris would easily be better.

Lol, or was that 3 mistakes?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by T@T

What has he done without Gretzky and Messier? He's had a top 3 spending team for 14 years and has done nothing but waste the money for the owners.

His best draft pick ever in NY was a 4th rounder and he traded him for a 38 year old. Sather should have been fired long ago. He flat out sucks.

Not to derail this thread any further....but really?

They have a G there that many would argue might just be the best player drafted in NY under Sather....among some others.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

1998 - 1 player who played over 100 games out of 10 picks

...

McPhee is somewhere around terrible in terms of drafting.

I'm not trying to defend McPhee here (He'd be better than Nieuwendyk, but we could do better than both), however if you want to torture statistics, using the metric of "100 game players drafted between 1998 and 2009" argues that George McPhee is a better drafter than Ken Holland. Holland has produced only 21 such players to McPhee's 25. (Hell, Holland isn't much better than Button/Sutter were - they were at 20 combined)

[Resolute 14]

Also, can we please not turn this thread into yet another Jay Feaster cryfest?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

I think those are actually pretty good numbers comparatively. And 1999 was a complete bust for everyone, only a handful of players actually did anything in the league.

So McPhee drafted 25 players to play more than 100 games, and that makes him a terrible GM? Well Holland only drafted 21 in the same period of time, so I guess by that assertion he must be even worse.

McPhee had 25 more picks than Holland during the same period, his percentage is lower in terms of producing players who got a cup of coffee.

McPhee had way more 1st and 2nd round picks than Holland (34 for McPhee compared with 14 for Holland). McPhee despite a plethora of top picks still was horrific in the draft.

McPhee only picked 7 players over all those years outside the first two rounds who got a cup of coffee in the NHL, Holland has 10. McPhee cannot find players after the first two rounds.

Holland's guys have played more combined games than McPhee's, Holland despite having far worst drafting position has drafted collectively in his 21 far superior players to McPhee.

Holland is superior in every way to McPhee in the draft. Based on any sort of drafting analysis McPhee is one of the worst in the NHL over the past 17 years.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I'm not trying to defend McPhee here (He'd be better than Nieuwendyk, but we could do better than both), however if you want to torture statistics, using the metric of "100 game players drafted between 1998 and 2009" argues that George McPhee is a better drafter than Ken Holland. Holland has produced only 21 such players to McPhee's 25. (Hell, Holland isn't much better than Button/Sutter were - they were at 20 combined)

100 games is a bad metric, I might have managed to find the one metric where McPhee is not the worst drafting GM over the that time period. Either way he would be awful for a rebuilding team through the draft.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

1999 - 1 player who played more than 100 games out 10 picks (this draft was particularly bad even by McPhee standards, 5 picks in the first 37)

But that's the 1999 draft for you. It was just terrible all around for everyone but Burke and Holland.

Number 7 - Kris Beech
Other notable players in the running were Taylor Pyatt and Oleg Saprykin. Beech went pretty much exactly where everyone thought he would go. McPhee and his staff were probably weighing in on Beech and Lundmark who had fallen. At that point it's pick your poison.

His four early 2nd round picks - Sivens, Stephens, Lupaschuk and Yonkman.
Terrible names, but his other legitimate options included Sellars, Michael Ryan, Jonas Andersson, Bartovic, Semenov, Cavanaugh, Buturlin and Auld. If he was an absolutely amazing drafter he would have still had to be super lucky to come away with Commodore and Leopold.

If anything with that draft I would be looking at how he obtained the picks. I would be worried if he was giving away major assets for 2nd round picks in that draft as it would show his terrible assessment but the actually drafting was a crapshoot. Hindsight is nice but I don't think you can blame a GM for not picking Zetterberg with his 30th pick here.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

I think those are actually pretty good numbers comparatively. And 1999 was a complete bust for everyone, only a handful of players actually did anything in the league.

So McPhee drafted 25 players to play more than 100 games, and that makes him a terrible GM? Well Holland only drafted 21 in the same period of time, so I guess by that assertion he must be even worse.

You should probably look at where Holland drafted Vs. where McPhee drafted before making that comparison.

McPhee is not a good GM. I'll be upset if he ends up being the GM here.

[trackercowe]

I bet 25 picks is pretty good compared to pretty much anyone, Chicago who everyone says is the new Detroit in terms of finding top players later in the draft only has 27 in that period of time. And they had a ton of early first rounder as well. 25 is likely well above average no matter who you compare it with.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

You should probably look at where Holland drafted Vs. where McPhee drafted before making that comparison.

McPhee is not a good GM. I'll be upset if he ends up being the GM here.

I think that's the point he's trying to make though. Without a real indepth analysis it's a pretty poor metric to use.

Take a look at the actual picks and a reasonable "what could have been" to get a sense of how he actually drafted. I don't know how he would fair but quick look doesn't seem terrible.

2002- Eminger (11), Semin (12) and Gordon (17) looks like a homerun if his other options were Higgins, Niinimaki, Klepis, Grebeshkov, Koreis, Babchuk, Bergenheim, and Eager. Steen and Ward were taken 24th and 25th so he could have done better but that's still 7 spots after his last pick in the first round, hindsight it's easy to say but it's a lot harder to blame him in 2002.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

I bet 25 picks is pretty good compared to pretty much anyone, Chicago who everyone says is the new Detroit in terms of finding top players later in the draft only has 27 in that period of time. And they had a ton of early first rounder as well. 25 is likely well above average no matter who you compare it with.

Over the same time period the Edmonton Oilers got 26 players who met the criteria. The powerful Edmonton Oilers did that with 8 less top 60 picks and 2 less picks overall

Edmonton is no good

George McPhee is no good

[T@T]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Not to derail this thread any further....but really?

They have a G there that many would argue might just be the best player drafted in NY under Sather....among some others.

OK, best skater...feel better?

And even a blind squirrel......Lundqvist was a 7th rounder that Sather probably didn't even know existed.

[dammage79]

And now to interupt this argument with some news:

Dean Molberg ‏@fan960boomer 4m
Based on texts & phone calls I've had the past few days, sounds like Brian Burke and the #Flames have found their man for the GM job.

If no one finds the timing of this tweet an indicator that McPhee is the guy. I'm not sure what else there could be.

[Scoutski]

No decisions are going to go through without Burke's approval so people don't need to worry he's going to trade away the farm if he comes here.

Also people giving him credit/no credit for drafting, don't forget there's a whole team of scouts who are responsible for giving him the majority of the information he uses to make draft selections.

When the caps failed to make progress on the ice in the playoffs, that wasn't McPhee playing, it could be argued that he didn't make enough big moves to try fix it, but what could he realistically do and by the time things got desperate he made that Forsberg (which was really gross) trade but it was really more a failing by the big players than their role guys.

All I'm really trying to get at is that the hiring of a GM, although will have an impact on the organisation, it's not necessarily a monumental change given that whoever it is will be making decisions based off the information he gets from the other management staff who already work at the Flames AND THEN they will need the approval of Brian Burke. I am personally happy with Burke, so I'm not really worried about it, if it's McPhee, fine, if it's someone else, fine, I trust them to make a good hire.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by dammage79

And now to interupt this argument with some news:

Dean Molberg ‏@fan960boomer 4m
Based on texts & phone calls I've had the past few days, sounds like Brian Burke and the #Flames have found their man for the GM job.

If no one finds the timing of this tweet an indicator that McPhee is the guy. I'm not sure what else there could be.

I don't know if the timing horrifies me or comforts me. He was just officially let go today ... but it's been rumoured for a while.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by dammage79

And now to interupt this argument with some news:

Dean Molberg ‏@fan960boomer 4m
Based on texts & phone calls I've had the past few days, sounds like Brian Burke and the #Flames have found their man for the GM job.

If no one finds the timing of this tweet an indicator that McPhee is the guy. I'm not sure what else there could be.

Amazingly useless tweet. Why not say who...