630 CHED poll asks if rape victims are to blame, 35% prove people are still awful

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

It's not so much wardrobe that is a factor, but behaviour. Excessive, and irresponsible drinking has certainly blurred the distinctions as to what constitutes sexual assault.

In situations where both people are equally intoxicated, I'd definitely agree. However, the guys who deliberately seek out the most wasted girl at the bar, party, whatever, are sexual predators and should be prosecuted.

EDIT: I should expand on the first sentence in saying that if both parties are drunk and appear to be consenting, it's difficult to claim that one is assaulting the other even though consent can't legally be given.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

In situations where both people are equally intoxicated, I'd definitely agree. However, the guys who deliberately seek out the most wasted girl at the bar, party, whatever, are sexual predators and should be prosecuted.

Completely agree. This is why it is completely fair to expect women to take responsibility for their behaviour at bars, parties etc... because rapists are predators and they seek a victim.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Completely agree. This is why it is completely fair to expect women to take responsibility for their behaviour at bars, parties etc... because rapists are predators and they seek a victim.

I think it's more productive to emphasise a culture where this sort of behaviour isn't acceptable. I can think of numerous occasions during my youth where guys would brag about getting girls drunk so they'd be easier be take home. That's a prime example of rape culture that we could easily do away with

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think it's more productive to emphasise a culture where this sort of behaviour isn't acceptable. I can think of numerous occasions during my youth where guys would brag about getting girls drunk so they'd be easier be take home. That's a prime example of rape culture that we could easily do away with

I am going to challenge you on the notion of rape culture. I actually think that we live in a primarily anti-rape culture. That said, I find that the problem you stated has a lot more to do with the culture of moral panic that has gripped the public since the introduction of the concept of rape culture. We don't really know if these boys were simply lying. Either way, it is the duty of a good man, I think, to stand against that sort of low behaviour ,and stand up for women, but that seems like that has always been the case.

The real question here is whether this is an issue that can be solved by the increasing frequency of educational measures, such as anti-rape education, university disciplinary committees etc... In this mania, there are real crimes being committed against men accused of rape with the automatic assumption that they must be guilty rapists. The Duke Lacrosse team is a perfect example of the absolute hysterical certainty in favour of the so-called victim that has become commonplace.

It seems to me that the real issue is social, and probably involves some reinsertion of the moral values surrounding sexuality.

I really like what Camille Paglia says on this issue, by the way.

http://www.macleans.ca/authors/emma-...-rape-culture/

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

I am going to challenge you on the notion of rape culture. I actually think that we live in a primarily anti-rape culture. That said, I find that the problem you stated has a lot more to do with the culture of moral panic that has gripped the public since the introduction of the concept of rape culture. We don't really know if these boys were simply lying. Either way, it is the duty of a good man, I think, to stand against that sort of low behaviour ,and stand up for women, but that seems like that has always been the case.

I'm not sure if you're pulling one of your typical contrarian troll-jobs but this first paragraph is so out of touch with reality that I'm not even sure where to begin. Honestly, I'm going to pull a peter12 and suggest you do a bit more reading on the subject because you're coming across as incredibly ignorant.

The real question here is whether this is an issue that can be solved by the increasing frequency of educational measures, such as anti-rape education, university disciplinary committees etc... In this mania, there are real crimes being committed against men accused of rape with the automatic assumption that they must be guilty rapists. The Duke Lacrosse team is a perfect example of the absolute hysterical certainty in favour of the so-called victim that has become commonplace.

Common rape-apologist argument. I love that one high-profile case from 8 years ago is presented as indicative of a larger problem, yet you choose to ignore the many more recent cases where the victims were harassed and skewered for coming forward (Marysville, Williamsville, etc.). Is this "mania" that is affecting so many men more or less of problem than the massive under-reporting of sexual assault and the ridiculously low conviction rates.

I'm not saying that men aren't victims of false charges, but let's have some perspective here and maybe address some of the cultural problems that keep women from reporting sexual assault and allow law enforcement to abdicate their responsibilities to prosecute the offenders.

It seems to me that the real issue is social, and probably involves some reinsertion of the moral values surrounding sexuality.

And here comes the reactionary mantra. Which moral values would you like to see re-inserted?

[peter12]

Common rape-apologist argument. I love that one high-profile case from 8 years ago is presented as indicative of a larger problem, yet you choose to ignore the many more recent cases where the victims were harassed and skewered for coming forward (Marysville, Williamsville, etc.). Is this "mania" that is affecting so many men more or less of problem than the massive under-reporting of sexual assault and the ridiculously low conviction rates.

You are really incapable of pursuing an argument decently, aren't you? You are aware that there isn't a lot of evidence that sexual assault is under-reported. You also don't seem aware that sexual assault rates have been in free-fall over the past 20 years. You also don't seem aware that there are specific cultural, and regional circumstances in all of the cases you cited, while the example I cited was a clear cognitive error in the justice system.

I'm not saying that men aren't victims of false charges,

You need to pursue this further. Some studies have indicated that false reporting could be anywhere between 10 and 50% of all cases.

but let's have some perspective here and maybe address some of the cultural problems that keep women from reporting sexual assault and allow law enforcement to abdicate their responsibilities to prosecute the offenders.

Like what? I never, once, said that rapists shouldn't be be punished to the full extent of the law, but let's also remember that the presumption of innocence is probably pretty important too, right?

And here comes the reactionary mantra. Which moral values would you like to see re-inserted?

Probably less promiscuity and binge drinking.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by peter12

Probably less promiscuity and binge drinking.

So the answer to the question is rape culture. If women weren't promiscuous partiers, they wouldn't get raped.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FireFly

So the answer to the question is rape culture. If women weren't promiscuous partiers, they wouldn't get raped.

ah ####, and here I was thinking that the male was the only one to blame for rape.......

[peter12]

Originally Posted by FireFly

So the answer to the question is rape culture. If women weren't promiscuous partiers, they wouldn't get raped.

I didn't single women out.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

You are aware that there isn't a lot of evidence that sexual assault is under-reported.

Really? The academic literature suggests otherwise:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.ezproxy....?dopt=Abstract

SA is the most widely underreported violent crime in the United States (Fisher, Daigle, Cullen, & Turner, 2003). Tjaden and Thoennes (2006) reported from the NVAWS data that only 19.1% of women and 12.9 % of men reported rape to the police.

Results from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) have consistently shown that rape and sexual assault have been the most widely underreported violent crimes. In fact, the 1999 NCVS results revealed that only 28.3%of these crimes were reported to the police (Rennison, 1999). Notably,other research has provided even lower estimates of reporting(Bachman, 1998; Finkelson & Oswalt, 1995; Gartner & Macmillan,1995; Kilpatrick, Edmunds, & Seymour, 1992; Kilpatrick, Saunders,Veronen, Best, & Von, 1987; Koss, 1985; Russell, 1983; Tjaden &
Thoennes, 2000). Similarly, sexual victimizations of college women have gone largely unreported. To illustrate, Koss et al. (1987) found that only 5% of college student rape victims reported their experience to the police.

You also don't seem aware that sexual assault rates have been in free-fall over the past 20 years.

If this is the case, then it contradicts your assertion that reintroducing certain moral values would decrease instances of rape.

You also don't seem aware that there are specific cultural, and regional circumstances in all of the cases you cited, while the example I cited was a clear cognitive error in the justice system.

What kind of cognitive error was that? The lacrosse team got off while, in the cases I've cited, the issue was largely swept under the rug until it gained national media attention.

You need to pursue this further. Some studies have indicated that false reporting could be anywhere between 10 and 50% of all cases.

Then I'm sure you'll have no problem producing these studies.

A recently published comprehensive review of studies and reports on false rape allegations listed 20 sources whose estimates ranged from 1.5% to 90% (Rumney,2006). However, when the sources of these estimates are examined carefully it is clear that only a fraction of the reports represent credible studies and that these credible studies indicate far less variability in false reporting rates.

False report: Applying IACP guidelines, a case was classified as a false report if there was evidence that a thorough investigation was pursued and that the investigation had yielded evidence that the reported sexual assault had in fact not occurred. A thorough investigation would involve, potentially, multiple interviews of the alleged perpetrator, the victim, and other witnesses, and where applicable, the collection of other forensic evidence (e.g., medical records, security camera records). For example, if key elements of a victim’s account of an assault were internally inconsistent and directly contradicted by multiple witnesses and if the victim then altered those key elements of his or her account, investigators might conclude that the report was false. That conclusion would have been based not on a single interview, or on intuitions about the credibility of the victim, but on a “preponderance”of evidence gathered over the course of a thorough investigation.

Among the seven studies that attempted some degree of scrutiny of police classifications and/or applied a definition of false reporting at least similar to that of the IACP, the rate of false reporting, given the many sources of potential variation in findings, is relatively consistent:

• 2.1% (Heenan & Murray, 2006)
• 2.5% (Kelly et al., 2005)
• 3.0% (McCahill et al., 1979)
• 5.9% (the present study)
• 6.8% (Lonsway & Archambault, 2008)
• 8.3% (Grace et al., 1992)
• 10.3% (Clark & Lewis, 1977)
• 10.9% (Harris & Grace, 1999)

Like what? I never, once, said that rapists shouldn't be be punished to the full extent of the law, but let's also remember that the presumption of innocence is probably pretty important too, right?

Which is why I never accused you of it. Let's move on.

Probably less promiscuity and binge drinking.

You'll have to explain the relationship between consensual promiscuity and sexual assault for me.

[prime333]

This is like saying that the 5 dead at the Brentwood Stabbing are to blame.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by SebC

False dichotomy. Do both. Education around risk factors isn't victim-blaming.

Women are endlessly educated around risk factors relating to rape from a very young (and sad) age.

However, only recently have anti-rape campaigns popped up to try and educate men that rape is bad ("Don't Be That Guy" etc), which have quickly been "parodied" and decried by the internet and Men's Rights groups.

False dichotomy indeed.

[Tinordi]

Why should women not have the right to go get plastered like their male counterparts without the fear of violence?

That starting point is already well within the rape culture paradigm.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by peter12

I didn't single women out.

No you didn't, but men who are promiscuous probably aren't rapists as they can get some without raping. And drunk men can't get it up. So....

[Plett25]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Why should women not have the right to go get plastered like their male counterparts without the fear of violence?

That starting point is already well within the rape culture paradigm.

Men have the right to go out and get plastered without the fear of violence?

Guys who go out and get plastered are at increased risk of getting assaulted or killed by arseholes looking for trouble.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Plett25

Men have the right to go out and get plastered without the fear of violence?

Guys who go out and get plastered are at increased risk of getting assaulted or killed by arseholes looking for trouble.

Anecdotally, the only guys who get drunk and get in fights are guys who get drunk and get in fights.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FireFly

No you didn't, but men who are promiscuous probably aren't rapists as they can get some without raping. And drunk men can't get it up. So....

This is a bad post, IMO.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

This is a bad post, IMO.

So is the idea that less promiscuity and binge drinking will reduce rape.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FireFly

So is the idea that less promiscuity and binge drinking will reduce rape.

Your post discounts that rape can happen, and does happen to both sexes.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Your post discounts that rape can happen, and does happen to both sexes.

I see. So instead of saying that in the first place, you circled around it for three posts.

peter was alluding to promiscuity and binge drinking being responsible for rape culture. I guess what I should have said was "so if people didn't like to drink and have sex, no one would get raped."

My apologies.

You're right, men do get raped.

The notion that promiscuity and binge drinking have anything to do with rape is ridiculous.