Question for the Pro-Vaccinate Crowd

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by redforever

That is what I have been saying all along. They should be subject to consequence...and unfortunately, children will also be subject to consequences because of irresponsible parenting.

But to deny health care to someone who is suffering from a primary health problem? Come on!!! And if as you propose, they should now have to pay for that health care...well then, are you willing to let someone die because they were perhaps irresponsible in a life style choice but now are unable to pay for primary health care?

I am not.

I am in total agreement with those people being denied entry to school, being denied employment etc but I will never be in agreement with denying someone primary health care. I simply don't have the stomach for that.

Well, we will never let anyone die in Canada. Sure there is a cost that will take a hit to their financial state, but to deny someone aid is, of course, morally wrong. If you read my posts, I never once advocated that we should deny anyone health care, only that they should contribute to the bottom line based on their choices. Maybe the use of the word "suffer the consequence" might be the wrong choice of words, but financially they will probably feel the pinch and suffer in that sense.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

I'm not sure that'll help much if Spanish flu pt 2 breaks out. What was the count during the last one? 500 million infected, 50-100 million dead.

When it's in the air....

Right, but in the years I've not been vaccinated, I've not been sick. The question is should vaccinations be required, and I don't think they should be. I'd strongly urge parents to vaccinate their children, however.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Apparently a Manitoba mother feel "bullied" because the school won't let her unvaccinated kids to attend because of a measles outbreak.

She now has to find alternatives, have them keep up with homework, and bring them to work because they can't go to school.

The school is citing the kids aren't allowed on school property for their own safety and the safety of the other children.


This isn't bullying, this is a health safety issue that you chose for your children.

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/51358..._hp_ref=canada

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Not all healthcare, just related to the vaccine. Say if you opted out of getting measles shots (and you have no pre-exiting conditions not to get one), and you develop measles, then you should pay for the bill instead of having the government pay for it. I think that's fair.

Don't taxpayers have to foot the bill for most vaccinations? I'm for vaccinations for the most serious diseases but why should someone pay taxes for vaccinations and not receive healthcare? If you start paying for all of you and your children's vaccines then OK.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Apparently a Manitoba mother feel "bullied" because the school won't let her unvaccinated kids to attend because of a measles outbreak.

She now has to find alternatives, have them keep up with homework, and bring them to work because they can't go to school.

The school is citing the kids aren't allowed on school property for their own safety and the safety of the other children.


This isn't bullying, this is a health safety issue that you chose for your children.

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/51358..._hp_ref=canada

Wow ... she feels bullied because the school is doing what is in the best interests of her child and all of the other children in the school. Perhaps she could take some lessons from them.

[AcGold]

I actually have a question; is it possible to get vaccines without having preservatives in them or is it fundamental to the process?

Getting measles would be awful so why not just make it possible for the overly anxious to get the freshest vaccinations so they don't require preservatives? Is that possible? From my understanding it's the preservatives that are one of the primary concerns for people (even if they are inert, I'm not trying to make a point, seriously want to know).

On top of that what are the most serious illnesses that warrant vaccination? Polio, measles and...? This lady is feeling bullied but I can understand the parents not wanting a kid spreading measles around, there's got to be some way to settle this logically.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by FDA

The United States Code of Federal Regulations (the CFR) requires, in general, the addition of a preservative to multi-dose vials of vaccines; indeed, worldwide, preservatives are routinely added to multi-dose vials of vaccine. Tragic consequences have followed the use of multi-dose vials that did not contain a preservative and have served as the impetus for this requirement.

Taken from: http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvac...ucm096228#pres

[AcGold]

So is that because they become immediately dangerous without preservative or is there a shelf life that is very small? If you could get a dose to someone within a day or two of it being created that might help people get vaccinated that otherwise wouldn't.

[Antithesis]

It's more because (in multi-dose vials), the possibility of microbial contamination of the vaccine itself is higher with repeated puncture of the vial. New processes for the manufacture of vaccines have led to a decreased need for preservatives in preventing microbial growth during manufacture.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Right, but in the years I've not been vaccinated, I've not been sick.

And this proves what exactly?

[pylon]

I am kinda confused by this thread now. Are we talking about childhood vaccinations for polio, measles etc.... or seasonal vaccines for the flu? Because I never get the seasonal ones, as I just kinda accept I will get sick once during the winter. The only time I got it was when the swine flu was floating around a few years back.

I totally agree with making sure children are vaccinated for the deadly stuff, but I don't really think the flu ones are necessary to get every year, unless you are working in a hospital.

[Codes]

It should definitely be mandated that every individual medically possible be given a battery of vaccinations, as well as subsequent booster shots when required.

I do not believe all vaccines should be mandatory, however. But there should be (and there are) rules in place governing the requirement for additional vaccinations to be administered depending on occupation and or location of work. As an example, in my work place, anybody that works with rabies in our BL3 labs MUST get the vaccinations and subsequent booster shots before being allowed to work under these conditions.

The problem today is the ever increasing globalization of everything. People, food and products can literally be moved around the world in 24 hours, which is more than enough time for viral and bacterial pathogens to remain in an infectious state. These agents are easily spread due to the sheer density of people that come into contact with one another on a daily basis.

As for the influenza vaccine, I personally don't get it annually, but as a scientist, I know it is becoming riskier every year not to get it. Influenza is a fascinating, smart, and ultimately evil virus, and it is only a matter of time before an extremely virulent strain emerges.

I was at a beer tasting on Friday night, and the instructor was telling us about an organic beer from a brewery that actually farmed all their own ingredients. They used guinea fowl and pigs to help control pests on the farm. This is actually horrifying, because inadvertently, this farm is creating the perfect conditions for the emergence of new influenza strains.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by pylon

I am kinda confused by this thread now. Are we talking about childhood vaccinations for polio, measles etc.... or seasonal vaccines for the flu? Because I never get the seasonal ones, as I just kinda accept I will get sick once during the winter. The only time I got it was when the swine flu was floating around a few years back.

I totally agree with making sure children are vaccinated for the deadly stuff, but I don't really think the flu ones are necessary to get every year, unless you are working in a hospital.

My premise was for the major diseases such as measles, polio, etc.

Since I'm not an expert, I admittedly don't know enough to propose an actual plan outlining which vaccines should be manditory and which ones shouldn't.

I wouldn't have the flu vaccine manditory for several reasons including but not limited to the effectiveness of the vaccine, and it's available supply.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by pylon

I totally agree with making sure children are vaccinated for the deadly stuff, but I don't really think the flu ones are necessary to get every year, unless you are working in a hospital.

Flu can be deadly.

[Sr. Mints]

Wow, this thread reeks of fascism.

Based on my own anecdotal observations, I think people who don't vaccinate their kids are misinformed quacks.

This is currently happening in my own family, as my brother and his wife made some bat#### crazy decision not to vaccinate my seven month old niece.

So lock them up? Fine them? Have the Calgary Police Service show up and strong arm them into getting the shot? Call Child Protective Services?

I don't think that's where the solutions lie. Better education and health promotion would be a good start.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Flu can be deadly.

Except you can't really vaccinate for the "flu".

Its a misnomer. What people believe is the "flu" and what influenza is, is often quite different.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza

[Trailer Fire]

Here is a question for you guys. If you got your kid vaccinated, why are you worried about your kid hetting sick because of "stupid and irresponsible" parents? Shouldn't your kid be fine even if someone else's kid isn't vaxx'd? How are kids that aren't vaccinated putting vaccinated kids at risk? Honestly that is one of the two big arguments against anti-vaxxers.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Except you can't really vaccinate for the "flu".

Its a misnomer. What people believe is the "flu" and what influenza is, is often quite different.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza

First line from wikipedia article cited:

Influenza, commonly known as "the flu", is an infectious disease of birds and mammals caused by RNA viruses of the family Orthomyxoviridae, the influenza viruses.

Sounds like synonyms to me. What is the difference? And right in the same article, the top way listed to prevent the flu is the vaccine.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Trailer Fire

Here is a question for you guys. If you got your kid vaccinated, why are you worried about your kid hetting sick because of "stupid and irresponsible" parents? Shouldn't your kid be fine even if someone else's kid isn't vaxx'd? How are kids that aren't vaccinated putting vaccinated kids at risk? Honestly that is one of the two big arguments against anti-vaxxers.

I'm not for immunization for the protection of MY kids. I don't even HAVE kids. Should I not care if Joe hits his kids because Joe isn't hitting MY kids?

As for the "fascist" comment - do you believe that we are already in a fascist country given that we have motorcycle helmet and seatbelt laws? And how can we do better education? The government could spend billions to better inform parents and there would still be plenty that buy the misinformation that is rampant around the web. There is a growing distrust of science that is alarming.... we can't even convince some people that the planet is more than 6,000 years old.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Sr. Mints

Wow, this thread reeks of fascism.

Based on my own anecdotal observations, I think people who don't vaccinate their kids are misinformed quacks.

This is currently happening in my own family, as my brother and his wife made some bat#### crazy decision not to vaccinate my seven month old niece.

So lock them up? Fine them? Have the Calgary Police Service show up and strong arm them into getting the shot? Call Child Protective Services?

I don't think that's where the solutions lie. Better education and health promotion would be a good start.

Why would vaccinated parents not want their children to be around un-vaccinated children?

The MMR vaccine, for example, is 95% effective against all three of the Mumps, Measles and Rubella. That's not 100%, and directly exposing children (or anyone) to the disease will increase the odds that they attract it. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/...-vac-risks.htm

I don't think enforcing a law for the protection of the citizens is fascism.

Is it fascist that children have to attend school? Is it fascist that children have to be properly clothed and fed? Is it fascist that if a child is injured they must receive medical attention (if your child breaks their arm you can't ignore it because you think that all doctors are controlled by Big Pharma)?




You state that perhaps more parents who aren't vaccinating their children would given them vaccinations with better education.

This leads me to the question, who should be giving this education?

I'd say the same people who educate parents if they don't know how to keep their house clean, the same people who educate parents who don't know how to properly feed their children, the same people who help parents who help parents who expose their children to a household filled with drug use... Child Protective Services.

Do you know or understand what Child Protective Services does? Or is it also fascist to call them if a house is unclean and children are living in squalor?