Will Gretzky's numbers ever be broken?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by pylon

If you took Crosby, with his exact same training, equipment, and skills back to the early 80' it would be a blood bath. He would probably score 300 goals in a single season against the pathetic goalies and pylon defensemen of that era.

It would look like a top rank Midget AAA player, playing against peewees. It is an impossible comparison to make.

I think it would be more interesting, to see what Gretzky could do now. Would he even crack the first line?

Well if we're going to do that... if you took Gretzky with the same training, equipment, skills and bla bla bla of today... he'd win the scoring race by a hundred points this season.

Reading through this I gotta wonder how many of you youngsters actually saw hockey in the 80's. He was torching slouches like Ray Bourque, Rod Langway, Rob Ramage, and Larry Robinson every night.

It's not like he was having a heyday against six Brian Glynn's (or Shane O'Briens) every night.

Despite what Don Cherry has to say, everybody was trying to kill him every night and every team had at least one version of Dave Semenko.

Then he had to score on Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur, Dominik Hasek, Mike Vernon, Ron Hextall...

[pylon]

Oh trust me, I watched Gretzky and company absolutely dismantle the Flames for many years. I just think there were some players from that era that would probably thrive more in todays game than Gretzky would. He was the perfect player, for that era. I just think todays defensive tactics, and ridiculous goaltending would really neuter his effectiveness.

I think Lemieux, would be an absolute mega star still to this day. I think Cam Neely was 10-15 years ahead of his time, and would be a beast in todays game (FU Sammuelson). I just question if Gretzky's size would inhibit him in todays game. Even when you look at the little guys today, they are built like brick sharthouses. Have you ever seen the pictures of Marty St Louis in his gaunch?

I am not taking away from Gretzky's accomplishments. One of my greatest thrills was meeting him about 10 years ago. I just don't know if in todays game, where 'the code' seems to be a thing of the past, if Gretzky wouldn't make it through an entire season without getting absolutely killed by some 4th line loser plug like Jannsen or the likes.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by pylon

Even when you look at the little guys today, they are built like brick sharthouses.

Patrick Kane certainly isn't. Hasn't stopped him from being a star.

[Loyal and True]

I'll always remember how Gretzky could make anyone look silly with his passing skills. If you were too aggressive and got too close, he would make a pass that left you badly out of position.

That was his whole thing behind the net too. He forced everyone to hesitate and re-think what their instincts taught them to do.

I realize that goaltending was not as good back then, and neither was the defensive systems. But you have to remember that Gretzky and his linemates out-chanced everyone in the league by a wide margin. Even the Flames built an awesome team but I would say they were big underdogs (almost) every time against Gretzky's Oilers.

[Chingas]

Originally Posted by #-3

I think you have to look at Games Played and Assists as big factors in there. For Game winning goals, there is only 1 available every game. And Gretzsky did not have as long of a career as others. Also to get all of those assists other guys must have been scoring allot, so they are going to pick up a few GWG.

Also in the first 4 years of Gretzksy career a smaller percentage of games were "Won" before over time was introduced. Meaning fewer GWGs were handed out.

Since the introduction of the shoot out, the number of available GWGs have been once again reduced.

[blender]

Originally Posted by pylon

Oh trust me, I watched Gretzky and company absolutely dismantle the Flames for many years. I just think there were some players from that era that would probably thrive more in todays game than Gretzky would. He was the perfect player, for that era. I just think todays defensive tactics, and ridiculous goaltending would really neuter his effectiveness.

I think Lemieux, would be an absolute mega star still to this day. I think Cam Neely was 10-15 years ahead of his time, and would be a beast in todays game (FU Sammuelson). I just question if Gretzky's size would inhibit him in todays game. Even when you look at the little guys today, they are built like brick sharthouses. Have you ever seen the pictures of Marty St Louis in his gaunch?

I am not taking away from Gretzky's accomplishments. One of my greatest thrills was meeting him about 10 years ago. I just don't know if in todays game, where 'the code' seems to be a thing of the past, if Gretzky wouldn't make it through an entire season without getting absolutely killed by some 4th line loser plug like Jannsen or the likes.

I get your point, but I think Gretzky was a good enough player to change the way the game is played. You refer to 'todays game'. Today's game wouldn't be the same game with Gretzky playing, IMO. The same way two teams will play a different style of game against each other than two other teams might based on personnel, match-ups, etc.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Originally Posted by blender

I get your point, but I think Gretzky was a good enough player to change the way the game is played.

It's a foreign idea today but back then, the BoG would meet to discuss ways to reduce offense and it was because of those Oilers.

[SuperMatt18]

The goal-tending is the biggest difference IMO.

Half of those goals in the 80's don't go in on the Michelin Man goalies that are in the NHL today.

[troutman]

Anything is possible. Who knows what the NHL will be like in 100 years? 500 years?

[Buff]

If Gretzky were playing today you can bet that he would have higher physical conditioning standards than the average person did during the 80s. So, he would theoretically be stronger and possibly quicker, and still dominating today like he did back then. Maybe not 200 point seasons but he would be comparatively ahead of the next bunch of guys.

[troutman]

Sorry if a Fata:
http://www.tsn.ca/bardown/Story.aspx...=446587&cid=fb

Interesting article from FiveThirtyEight.com titled "Why Gretzky Had It Easy: The Butterfly Effect"



Save percentage rapidly increased during the so-called dead-puck era of the 1990s and early 2000s. It’s no coincidence that over that period, the NHL’s rate of scoring also dropped sharply. A lot of fans blame strategies such as the neutral-zone trap and left-wing lock for triggering the dead-puck era, but more of the blame belongs to better goalies.

[habernac]

Hilarious. By this graph, there should be a bunch of other guys who played in Gretzky's era with crazy numbers like him. Uh, no.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by habernac

Hilarious. By this graph, there should be a bunch of other guys who played in Gretzky's era with crazy numbers like him. Uh, no.

That and the 1996 season are my biggest reasons for not buying heavily into what I believe has become too big of a myth surrounding their point production.

If the 1980's were so easy to score, how come Gretzky outscored the nearest competition by 800 points that decade? He had nearly a point per game more than Bossy. Sure maybe the competition in the 80's wasn't as great as it is now but Bossy was himself a tremendous player. I think it's undervaluing players of Bossy's ilk to say Gretzky was getting his points simply because of the 80's when the other greats (sans Lemieux) never came close during that same period.

Then you got the 1996 season, Lemieux comes back after missing nearly 2 seasons due to his back problem and radiation fatigue. 161 points in 70 games. 189 point pro-rated. These guys were just really good.

It's obvious that goaltenders are better, systems are better, heck we have rules in place designed to stop Gretzky. He would have a tougher time today than yesteryears but I think at his prime he could still be reaching towards 200 points - which I know many think is absurd. But Lemieux had potential to do it during the clutch and grab era against Roy, Hasek and Brodeur. Today's game may not be the high flying 80's but it's also not the clutch and grab 90's. Scoring is down but Gretzky's playstyle would still work today.

And for some reference. During the 2010's St. Louis has 10 points more than Giroux. During the 2000's Thornton had 100 more points than Iginla. During the 1990's Jagr had 50 more points than Sakic. During the 1970's Esposito had 150 more points than Lafleur. During the 1960's Mikita had 50 more points than Hull. During the 1980's Gretzky had 800 more points than Stastny.

[vilzeh]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

That and the 1996 season are my biggest reasons for not buying heavily into what I believe has become too big of a myth surrounding their point production.

If the 1980's were so easy to score, how come Gretzky outscored the nearest competition by 800 points that decade? He had nearly a point per game more than Bossy. Sure maybe the competition in the 80's wasn't as great as it is now but Bossy was himself a tremendous player. I think it's undervaluing players of Bossy's ilk to say Gretzky was getting his points simply because of the 80's when the other greats (sans Lemieux) never came close during that same period.

Then you got the 1996 season, Lemieux comes back after missing nearly 2 seasons due to his back problem and radiation fatigue. 161 points in 70 games. 189 point pro-rated. These guys were just really good.

It's obvious that goaltenders are better, systems are better, heck we have rules in place designed to stop Gretzky. He would have a tougher time today than yesteryears but I think at his prime he could still be reaching towards 200 points - which I know many think is absurd. But Lemieux had potential to do it during the clutch and grab era against Roy, Hasek and Brodeur. Today's game may not be the high flying 80's but it's also not the clutch and grab 90's. Scoring is down but Gretzky's playstyle would still work today.

And for some reference. During the 2010's St. Louis has 10 points more than Giroux. During the 2000's Thornton had 100 more points than Iginla. During the 1990's Jagr had 50 more points than Sakic. During the 1970's Esposito had 150 more points than Lafleur. During the 1960's Mikita had 50 more points than Hull. During the 1980's Gretzky had 800 more points than Stastny.

Never.