Grade BURKE's trade deadline day

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Turning down a trade offer which would result in picks that would be helpful in rebuilding the organization because it did not meet his expectations of what HE felt the player was worth is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Hurt the team by rejecting picks that could be used to improve the team long run, whether it be through trade or draft selection. Instead left with zip.

You got no clue as to what was turned down or what was rejected. Apparently, there was a 3 way deal on the table and the 3rd team couldn't get their #### together in time. To say Burke is turning down opportunities to help his own team because he is has too much pride or whatever you are trying to say is ridiculous. I'm confident that Burke isn't an idiot and is a very smart businessman. And if HE felt it wasn't worth a trade, it probably wasn't- that's what smart people do, that's what smart GM's do.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I wouldn't say its nothing, but I can see why Burke was holding out for more, and if the risk is a mid-round pick.... I don't see it as a big deal. A 3rd or 4th would be great, don't get me wrong.... but I'm sorry if I don't see it as such a raging big deal like you guys do.

Again, you guys ignored this post before, but do you guys stress this much every year about pending UFAs that did not go for mid-round picks?

The consensus was that Cammy would net a late first + secondary prospect or a second + good prospect. What stings is we got nothing. And if it was due to no teams making an offer, that's outside Burke's control. But when a team offers a tangible asset and Burke rejects it and we get nothing, that is a huge disappointment. Again, I'd much rather him explain the reasons why he took a lesser package that benefits the team long run instead of a blustery speech about how no one bends him over in a trade.

Once, just once, it would be good to walk away from a deadline knowing that the GM made all the right moves instead of blowing an asset like has happened so often in the past.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

The consensus was that Cammy would net a late first + secondary prospect or a second + good prospect. What stings is we got nothing. And if it was due to no teams making an offer, that's outside Burke's control. But when a team offers a tangible asset and Burke rejects it and we get nothing, that is a huge disappointment. Again, I'd much rather him explain the reasons why he took a lesser package that benefits the team long run instead of a blustery speech about how no one bends him over in a trade.

Once, just once, it would be good to walk away from a deadline knowing that the GM made all the right moves instead of blowing an asset like has happened so often in the past.

you don't know that, and neither do i.

What "consensus" says is crap. Burke has said for days leading up to the deadline that the market is being held up by other players. Listen to that, not Calgarypuck experts. It will save you a lot of stress.

[Vulcan]

My thoughts. Poor returns on vets because of lowering of cap, made deals difficult. The delayed Vanek deal also made Burke run out of time. If you look at tonight's lineup, we only have 5 veteran NHL forwards plus a rookie goalie with 1 game to his credit. If Cammallari wasn't in the lineup, it would look pretty sad.

I wouldn't have minded treading Butler if we could get a youngish big, mean defenceman (good luck with that) but if it was just for a pick, we don't have anyone to replace him.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by cowtown75

You got no clue as to what was turned down or what was rejected. Apparently, there was a 3 way deal on the table and the 3rd team couldn't get their #### together in time. To say Burke is turning down opportunities to help his own team because he is has too much pride or whatever you are trying to say is ridiculous. I'm confident that Burke isn't an idiot and is a very smart businessman. And if HE felt it wasn't worth a trade, it probably wasn't- that's what smart people do, that's what smart GM's do.

Let me simplify things. Something is better than nothing. The whole nonsense about setting the tone as an organization that won't be pushed around is damage control and/or deflection about not converting an expiring contract into a future asset.

Not going to convince you otherwise nor will I try to. Just a big disappointment.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Let me simplify things. Something is better than nothing. The whole nonsense about setting the tone as an organization that won't be pushed around is damage control and/or deflection about not converting an expiring contract into a future asset.

Not going to convince you otherwise nor will I try to. Just a big disappointment.

In a vacuum maybe, but things are more complicated than that

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

For those saying a third round pick is worth nothing, well look no further than at our defensive core to see what those sort of picks can get (Brodie, Russell, heck Giordano wasn't even drafted). In all likelihood to those picks amount to nothing? Yah probably, the picks wouldn't have amounted to much, but it's still that much more than the nothing we'll be getting from Cammy once he is gone in July. As an example of what the 3rd round can amount to, just in checking Russell's 2005 draft in the same round Letang, Quick, Franson, Russell, Ben Bishop, and Mark Fraser were all taken.

Gio was signed as an undrafted FA, Russell for a 5th rounder- what's your point ? that d-men or anyone else can be aquired via trade or FA ? Just cause we got lucky with Brodie, doesn't mean anything. The laws of averages doesn't favor 4th round picks or 3rd round picks- let's get a grip here. It's smart business decisions as to why guys like Gio and Russell are here- not because we cultivated a 4th rounder.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

you don't know that, and neither do i.

What "consensus" says is crap. Burke has said for days leading up to the deadline that the market is being held up by other players. Listen to that, not Calgarypuck experts. It will save you a lot of stress.

When TSN has Cammy as the sixth best player available and Burke says what was offered wasn't good enough (his words, so there were tangible offers out there), there were tangible assets being offered, albeit not to Burke's liking.

Yes, I'm pissed that we didn't move him and I'm venting. I'm sure there are others that agree with me and those that don't. Don't know what I've done to you to solicit this kind of reaction but it's not the first time you've take a run at me so I will be the bigger person and put you on ignore.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Let me simplify things. Something is better than nothing. The whole nonsense about setting the tone as an organization that won't be pushed around is damage control and/or deflection about not converting an expiring contract into a future asset.

Not going to convince you otherwise nor will I try to. Just a big disappointment.

How about risk of something better (i.e. 1st or 2nd round pick) or nothing
versus
"something" mediocre (i.e. 4th round pick)

????

Maybe you would take the latter, and thats ok. But I can understand why someone would perfer to take the road of the former.

[Hugh Jahrmes]

Come on haters .. Vanek got a (maybe) second. Burke did not turn down a 1/2 round pick prospect combo for cammi. Honestly we have five picks in the first three rounds and still hold what many considered out best asset for next year. Home run? Nobody said it was. Despite that, I do buy Burke's reasoning that giving away assets builds the belief we are easily manipulated and we've definitely avoided that today.

It's easy to demand more when you see the sexy names being tossed around, I loved the fact that with Darryl we could look forward to that, but I'm pretty comfortable with where we sit especially considering many of our prospects have exceeded the low expectations I had for them.

Hope to see too knotch effort from now to the draft followed by some long term moves that bring us back to a respectable level

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

When TSN has Cammy as the sixth best player available and Burke says what was offered wasn't good enough (his words, so there were tangible offers out there), there were tangible assets being offered, albeit not to Burke's liking.

Yes, I'm pissed that we didn't move him and I'm venting. I'm sure there are others that agree with me and those that don't. Don't know what I've done to you to solicit this kind of reaction but it's not the first time you've take a run at me so I will be the bigger person and put you on ignore.

Not sure what I'm saying that you are taking so personally.... i don't really remember taking a run at you. But if you post silly stuff like this, maybe I did. Oh wells.

EDIT : ok i got curious.... is this it?
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...IV#post4275729
Was that it? too funny if so. Can't believe that you remembered that, crazy.

[Vinny01]

This grade changes if Cammy is re-signed at a fair rate for 2 years and Burke moves Hudler for a nice return at the draft

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Let me simplify things. Something is better than nothing. The whole nonsense about setting the tone as an organization that won't be pushed around is damage control and/or deflection about not converting an expiring contract into a future asset.

Not going to convince you otherwise nor will I try to. Just a big disappointment.

You don't need to "simplify" things for me. I'm pretty versed on how things work. A smart business (Hockey Club) doesn't give away it's assets for nothing and you don't give away players for well below market value. I was dissapointed that we couldn't get anything of value for Cammy as well, but, you don't look like a sieve and start giving away good assets either because you are desperate. We can still sign Cammy and my heart wouldn't be broken if we did either. We still need some vets and Cammy IS a good player despite what you or anyone thinks. Accepting a 3rd or a 4th would of been very bad. Things can change, Cammy can sign a 3-4 year contract for 4-4.5 per and now he is no longer a rental and you can get a proper "hockey trade" for him down the road. Most likely, it will be a sign and trade by draft day.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by cowtown75

You don't need to "simplify" things for me. I'm pretty versed on how things work. A smart business (Hockey Club) doesn't give away it's assets for nothing and you don't give away players for well below market value. I was dissapointed that we couldn't get anything of value for Cammy as well, but, you don't look like a sieve and start giving away good assets either because you are desperate. We can still sign Cammy and my heart wouldn't be broken if we did either. We still need some vets and Cammy IS a good player despite what you or anyone thinks. Accepting a 3rd or a 4th would of been very bad. Things can change, Cammy can sign a 3-4 year contract for 4-4.5 per and now he is no longer a rental and you can get a proper "hockey trade" for him down the road. Most likely, it will be a sign and trade by draft day.

Yet we will get nothing for him if we do not sign him because Burke didn't like what was being offered today.

[Jacks]

Even if Cammy doesn't re-sign there is a reasonable chance that we can get a 6th or 7th for his negotiating rights. Can't really judge the Cammy situation until after the playoffs. I do agree with Burke though that you can't be known for caving in to a lowball offer if people think you are desperate.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Even if Cammy doesn't re-sign there is a reasonable chance that we can get a 6th or 7th for his negotiating rights. Can't really judge the Cammy situation until after the playoffs. I do agree with Burke though that you can't be known for caving in to a lowball offer if people think you are desperate.

So a 6th is worth three months from now than a 4th today in the name of organizational image.

[keratosis]

I think he did what he could without selling the farm.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

So a 6th is worth three months from now than a 4th today in the name of organizational image.

I run into this quite often, someone will underbid me by a large amount and the customer will ask me if I can match their bid. Most of the time I tell them no, even though I might still make a few bucks at that price it isn't worth turning myself into one of the "low bid" guys who does everything for next to nothing. Not saying it's the same as this situation but it is a personal experience in the area.

Edit: I should note that fairly often I win the bid anyway at a higher price so it is worth it in the end.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Jacks

I run into this quite often, someone will underbid me by a large amount and the customer will ask me if I can match their bid. Most of the time I tell them no, even though I might still make a few bucks at that price it isn't worth turning myself into one of the "low bid" guys who does everything for next to nothing. Not saying it's the same as this situation but it is a personal experience in the area.

I think this may have been the reputation we were starting to get..... in which case, I'd be very happy if we dropped that reputation.

[Ring of Fire]

I'm ok with how the deadline went. Judging from the other deals, Burke got good value in the deals he made.

Deals:
Berra for 2nd round pick - great deal - comparable: Bryzgalov (4th), Fasth (3rd & 5th), Dubnyk (future considerations)

Stempniak for 3rd round pick - good deal - comparable: Hemsky (3rd & 5th), Penner (4th), Goc (3rd & 5th), Legwand (3rd, cap dump, prospect), Erat (4th, cap dump, prospect swap)

Non-deals:
Butler - comparable: Schultz (5th), Diaz (5th), Meszaros (3rd), Robidas (conditional 4th), Weaver 5th - I'm ok with no deal here provided they re-sign him to a short deal. Butler is worth more as a player than a 5th round pick which is likely the level of return offered. If we traded Butler we'd likely be spending a 4th or 5th to replace him in the short term anyway.

Cammalleri - comparable: Vanek (2nd & prospect), Moulson (two 2nds), Legwand (prospect & 3rd), Ruutu (3rd & tweener), Gaborik (2nd, 3rd, & tweener), Hemsky (3rd & 5th), Erat (4th & cap dump) - I'd say the most you were likely getting a 3rd and a prospect for Cammalleri based on the market. Not a great return. I'm very surprised Anaheim didn't up the ante for Cammalleri but again this is no big deal if he re-signs and is ok with sticking around. If he leaves for nothing this starts to look bad but I also understand Burke's point that you can't sell too far below your asking price.

O'Brien - I can't imagine there were any offers (maybe future considerations) but we don't need the roster spot with only 42 contracts and we have plenty of cap space. Enjoy him Abby!

Smith - See O'Brien.

Overall I give Burke a B.

I'm excited to see a splash at the draft!