Should the City reconsider the snow removal policy? [Split from weather]

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well pure convenience, I'm fine cutting back the snow clearing to skip the residential areas and letting people fend for themselves. Put some more snow fencing in areas like Skyview Ranch and trouble spots, and stick to main and secondary roads.

Sorry, I think I missed something in your phrasing. Tolling is more convenient than a tax built into gas transactions we already make? Or snow clearing is for pure convenience?

[Slava]

Well overall I'm in favour of toll roads for a few reasons. One of which is maintenance in general. Is it an extra bill to pay? Sure. You pay for use though, so if you don't drive Deerfoot or Stoney Trail, you don't pay the toll. I suppose that's marginally inconvenient compared to increasing fuel taxes because we already complete that transaction.

If the message here from the city is the snow clearing is as good as it can get with the current funding, then people have a decision to make. We either reduce service (stop clearing residential streets with a few defined exceptions), or figure out a way to increase the budget. To me pay for use is the fairest way to do that.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well overall I'm in favour of toll roads for a few reasons. One of which is maintenance in general. Is it an extra bill to pay? Sure. You pay for use though, so if you don't drive Deerfoot or Stoney Trail, you don't pay the toll. I suppose that's marginally inconvenient compared to increasing fuel taxes because we already complete that transaction.

If the message here from the city is the snow clearing is as good as it can get with the current funding, then people have a decision to make. We either reduce service (stop clearing residential streets with a few defined exceptions), or figure out a way to increase the budget. To me pay for use is the fairest way to do that.

If toll roads happened, who's going to pay for the additional trains and buses to accommodate volume? Will the all the buses be running overnight in case i have to work late?

Who will be covering the costs of getting bus service to areas of the city where it currently isn't being provided but needed for work?

Should bike lanes be tolled as well? Someone has to build and maintain them.

If there are tolls how much of a discount am i looking at in gas taxes since less of it is going to roads?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

If toll roads happened, who's going to pay for the additional trains and buses to accommodate volume? Will the all the buses be running overnight in case i have to work late?

Who will be covering the costs of getting bus service to areas of the city where it currently isn't being provided but needed for work?

Should bike lanes be tolled as well? Someone has to build and maintain them.

If there are tolls how much of a discount am i looking at in gas taxes since less of it is going to roads?

I realise this isn't to be popular before I say it, but here goes. People have to understand that they've paid for a vehicle, and pay some gas taxes and registration, but they don't pay for the cost of driving on all of these roads. A toll would make some of these roads pay for themselves through time. Take something like the ring road. Its an enormous cost to build, and ongoing maintenance as well. To me that's a perfect candidate for a toll. The airport tunnel is another. People have other options, but they might take longer, or they can pay a toll for the convenience of a faster road.

Like I say, its not popular. I get that no one wants to pay tolls and no one wants to hear that as public policy. As far as the "what if you have to work late?" or "what about more buses?" I have no idea. I guess if you work late, you pay the toll on your way home? I have no idea what that question is getting at. Transit demand might increase with tolls, or might not. That would be something to address down the line though as I'm not suggesting every road everywhere be tolled. What if the toll for say Deerfoot Trail was $1/day? How many drivers would switch to transit? I would venture that would be minimal impact, and yet generate significant funds for maintenance and upkeep.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Slava

I realise this isn't to be popular before I say it, but here goes. People have to understand that they've paid for a vehicle, and pay some gas taxes and registration, but they don't pay for the cost of driving on all of these roads. A toll would make some of these roads pay for themselves through time. Take something like the ring road. Its an enormous cost to build, and ongoing maintenance as well. To me that's a perfect candidate for a toll. The airport tunnel is another. People have other options, but they might take longer, or they can pay a toll for the convenience of a faster road.

Like I say, its not popular. I get that no one wants to pay tolls and no one wants to hear that as public policy. As far as the "what if you have to work late?" or "what about more buses?" I have no idea. I guess if you work late, you pay the toll on your way home? I have no idea what that question is getting at. Transit demand might increase with tolls, or might not. That would be something to address down the line though as I'm not suggesting every road everywhere be tolled. What if the toll for say Deerfoot Trail was $1/day? How many drivers would switch to transit? I would venture that would be minimal impact, and yet generate significant funds for maintenance and upkeep.

I could not disagree more. I usually like user fees in lieu of taxes, but I disagree with this one.

We WANT traffic to take the ring road. All trucks coming in the south end of city and going north, we want off deerfoot, and just stick to the ring road. We want them there, why discourage it's use?


We all payed for the capital cost of the roads, so the rich shouldn't have privilege to use them over the poor (even just deerfoot or the ring road).

If the toll was small amount that it wouldn't impact most people's wallet, it would cost enough money in administrative fees to not make it worth it (not to mention the traffic impact with even digital systems of collecting tolls).

As for transit, our train is utilized to capacity in the mornings, only the bus routes aren't.

If the people who can't afford to pay the drive our roads are forced to use our bus system to get to work, you just put them at an additional life disadvantage again, they now waste an extra hour going to and from work each day.

The other problem - the ring road - pretty much serves areas of the city not near speedy transit as it lies on the edge of the city.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

I live in Grande Prairie, but one of my neighbours has a blade on the front of his truck and he always makes a few passes on the road after it snows. I have a second neighbour with a skidsteer and a power brush who will drive up the sidewalk to clear all of the snow.
Both seem happy to do it but a tax incentive would go along way to spreading that throughout the city.

Tax incentive? Not judging, but that's illegal.

[RedMileDJ]

The initial blizzard into Calgary happened 15 days ago. Since then, the majority of the city roads, including some side streets, have been plowed. Yes, it's been ugly.

But my street hasn't, along with the majority in Martindale. I'm getting really freakin' tired of having to drive down these 10 inch ruts, while having my undercarriage all scrapped up and stuff. I've called 311, opened multiple tickets on the 311 app and tweeted the city and mayor multiple times.

No response, or very little response. I actually saw plows today in Martindale, but they obviously didn't come down my street.

I just got back from Montreal on Sunday, and this city could learn a thing or two about snow "removal." And I don't buy the "budget" excuse. We have the budget...we just have to do it better.

Sorry.../rant off.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Red-Mile-DJ

I just got back from Montreal on Sunday, and this city could learn a thing or two about snow "removal." And I don't buy the "budget" excuse. We have the budget...we just have to do it better.

Sorry.../rant off.

This storm certainly exposed weaknesses in our protocols (which have worked well in normal storms over the past two years since the policy changed) and we're certainly going to fix them - but to suggest budget has no impact on level of service simply isn't true. Montreal has fewer lane km and a snow removal budget of $145 million compared to our snow and ice control budget of $37 million. Notice the difference in nomenclature - Montreal physically removes snow from its streets, but it pays 4 times as much to do so.

[Flamenspiel]

^^Thanks for mentioning that, Montreal and Quebec taxes are horrid. I don't think anyone wants to go with such a model.

[BlackArcher101]

I'd like to thank the plow that came through last night, pushed the snow from the side (parking area) of an already narrow residential street into the middle creating a berm. Thought he would come back to finish the job, nope, berm left there right in the middle making an already one car width road even crappier.

WTF city plow. It would have been better if you left it be. Maybe he thought the blade was going the other way? Pure stupidity.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Red-Mile-DJ

The initial blizzard into Calgary happened 15 days ago. Since then, the majority of the city roads, including some side streets, have been plowed. Yes, it's been ugly.

But my street hasn't, along with the majority in Martindale. I'm getting really freakin' tired of having to drive down these 10 inch ruts, while having my undercarriage all scrapped up and stuff. I've called 311, opened multiple tickets on the 311 app and tweeted the city and mayor multiple times.

No response, or very little response. I actually saw plows today in Martindale, but they obviously didn't come down my street.

I just got back from Montreal on Sunday, and this city could learn a thing or two about snow "removal." And I don't buy the "budget" excuse. We have the budget...we just have to do it better.

Sorry.../rant off.

Snow will not damage your undercarriage. You expect the city to do your street just because you have been misinformed about that ability of snow to damage metal or scratch paint? Ask yourself how much of a bother is it really driving through these ruts? In the big picture not a big deal at all which is why the city is focusing on more important road maintenance.

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Snow will not damage your undercarriage. You expect the city to do your street just because you have been misinformed about that ability of snow to damage metal or scratch paint? Ask yourself how much of a bother is it really driving through these ruts? In the big picture not a big deal at all which is why the city is focusing on more important road maintenance.

Snow wont but ice sure will. It can easily rip your muffler off if you catch it right. Not to mention those deep ruts make it real easy for you to get your car high centered if you aren't careful. I am sure everybody in the NE would love to get stuck 15 days after the initial storm. There is no possible way anyone can argue that the city has done a good job with the roads.

[Żoso]

I feel this man's pain.

[mykalberta]

I think for those areas with severe drifting so much that your car - winter tires or not cant get through there are 3 people to blame and the blame is all equal amongst the 3 groups

1 - the City for allowing the development plan and not putting in measures to negate this easily for-seen event in Calgary (we have a lot of wind here, if we have snow on the ground its going to get blown over). Also saying they are going to do garbage pickup in front instead of in the back alley is pathetic IMO. If the City's own crew cant get into the neighbourhood then maybe its time to blow at least the back alleys so the gargabe trucks can get through.

2 - the developers who planned and built the neighbourhood. This blame is shared with the City but they have an equal responsibility IMO

3 - the citizens who live there. Your Prius that is great on gas isnt going to be good in weather like this. You have no one to blame for this other than yourself. If you cant afford a vehicle that can handle for seen weather conditions then maybe you should buy a used SUV/Truck or take transit instead.

If you dont live on a bus route in Calgary its your responsibility to know that the City doesnt clear those roads and if your income is based on you driving then maybe you need to look at an alternative place to live. I heard someone on the news say they know a home based hair dresser who hasnt had clients for 2 weeks. Well no offence but if that home based buisness was located on a bus route then that issue wouldnt exist. You dont hear McDonalds complaining because they arent making money at a location because it was snowed in. I get it, you dont want to live on a bus route cause increased traffic and noise etc - but then you also dont get the benefits that go along with it.

If people want better snow removal they are going to have to pay and we all know how likely that is.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

Snow wont but ice sure will. It can easily rip your muffler off if you catch it right. Not to mention those deep ruts make it real easy for you to get your car high centered if you aren't careful. I am sure everybody in the NE would love to get stuck 15 days after the initial storm. There is no possible way anyone can argue that the city has done a good job with the roads.

Oh please. I've installed lots of exhausts systems over the years and if snow or ice rips off you muffler it's because it was rusted out and/or not properly fitted. I don't think the city has done a poor job. This isn't a typical December and we are simply having a near record snowfall for this month. This is nothing and I can clearly see some of you have never lived in small town Alberta before or Eastern Canada where they really get snow. I chalk this up to Calgary becoming the city of whiners.

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Oh please. I've installed lots of exhausts systems over the years and if snow or ice rips off you muffler it's because it was rusted out and/or not properly fitted. I don't think the city has done a poor job. This isn't a typical December and we are simply having a near record snowfall for this month. This is nothing and I can clearly see some of you have never lived in small town Alberta before or Eastern Canada where they really get snow. I chalk this up to Calgary becoming the city of whiners.

I live in Cochrane where we got more snow overnight then Calgary received last night and I woke up to my road plowed. I get that Cochrane has exponentially fewer roads then Calgary but at least I see snow plows out working as the storm is happening not after it is done and playing catchup. Calgary has been brutal for years on getting the streets plowed. When I lived in New Brighton there was still new construction happening on my street so the developers had it plowed everyday for us. When we try to get onto New Brighton Drive which is a bus route the roads were a crap shoot and caused massive delays because they weren't touched by the city.

I had a paper route for 2 winters in Calgary where I was up from 3-6 am daily. I can count the number of times on one hand that I saw plows on deerfoot/ glenmore/heritage on those mornings before the rush hour commute.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

I live in Cochrane where we got more snow overnight then Calgary received last night and I woke up to my road plowed. I get that Cochrane has exponentially fewer roads then Calgary but at least I see snow plows out working as the storm is happening not after it is done and playing catchup. Calgary has been brutal for years on getting the streets plowed. When I lived in New Brighton there was still new construction happening on my street so the developers had it plowed everyday for us. When we try to get onto New Brighton Drive which is a bus route the roads were a crap shoot and caused massive delays because they weren't touched by the city.

I had a paper route for 2 winters in Calgary where I was up from 3-6 am daily. I can count the number of times on one hand that I saw plows on deerfoot/ glenmore/heritage on those mornings before the rush hour commute.

You are comparing Cochrane to Calgary. Think about that for a second. You think the City of Calgary doesn't have snow plows on the road? There's just a lot of roads and just because you don't see a plow on a particular road at a certain time of the day that doesn't mean that they won't be plowed. You don't honestly think the city should keep a snow plow for every road in the city do you?

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You are comparing Cochrane to Calgary. Think about that for a second. You think the City of Calgary doesn't have snow plows on the road? There's just a lot of roads and just because you don't see a plow on a particular road at a certain time of the day that doesn't mean that they won't be plowed. You don't honestly think the city should keep a snow plow for every road in the city do you?

You just stated I should live in a small town. Cochrane is a small town compared to Calgary. I don't expect them to plow every road but you would think they would do the major roads before rush hour commute. Like I said in 2 winters I was driving the road every morning pre rush hour you would think I would see more than 5 snowplows on Deerfoot Glenmore and Heritage all pretty major roads in the city prior to rush hour starting after a storm.

[Canehdianman]

I was dreading the drive into work today, but it ended up taking only about 5 minutes longer than normal.

Thank goodness all the summer-tired, low-rider Civics and Priuses are stuck in their driveways. Left plenty of room on the road for those with properly equipped vehicles to get to work.

Enjoy the bus!

[kevman]

So the guy from Cochrane is complaining about the City of Calgary's ability to clear snow? That's grand.