What do you want out of this season? Pick or Playoffs?

[gargamel]

Even if you only care about picks, which team do you think Gaudreau would be willing to forego his senior season at NCAA Championship contending Boston College for? A basement dweller who has missed the playoffs for 5 straight seasons, or a playoff team that's on the way up? I'll take Gaudreau and a mid-first round pick over a high first rounder and no Gaudreau any day.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

If you want the playoffs, you want to see this team succeed.

Just making the playoffs isn't success. Wining the Stanley Cup is success. We should settle for nothing less. This team has endured too many years of mediocrity and I'm tired of it. Time to shoot for something higher.... and in order to do that we need a full clip in the gun.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Just making the playoffs isn't success. Wining the Stanley Cup is success. We should settle for nothing less.

This is such a bad attitude among hockey fans generally. 1 team in 30 wins the cup. Your team can have a good season and you don't have to feel bitterly disappointed just because your team wasn't that 1 in 30. If your team is enjoyable to watch play over the course of a season you've gotten full value.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I think even that is somewhat wishful thinking. Perhaps some of those guys are already in the system, but I still think we need the following to be considered a team that could be a cup contender (as opposed to a playoff contenders):

1. High end can-do-it-all defenseman (ie a Weber, Doughty type). This is where we probably need another Top 5 (or 10 if we're a little lucky) pick. It's our biggest glaring hole.

2. A shutdown in-yo-face defenseman who makes life really hard for the opposition (Regehr type). If we're lucky, maybe Sieloff is that guy.

3. A big, tough, skilled winger (ideally RW). We're still undersized and need someone who is built for the playoffs (ie, a Lucic or Iginla type). After Poirier, things get pretty thin on that right wing.

4. Even though the Bruins have showed that you can do it without, I'd still love to see an undisputed franchise-type center. Monahan may or may not be that guy...but you can never have enough elite centers. These guys pretty much almost always have to be Top 3 type of picks. Hard to do without failing or getting really lucky (ie, Getzlaf).

5. A superpest who takes opposing skilled guys off their game. (a Marchand, Nieminen, Gallagher type).

6. And last but not least, a solid dependable goalie. (which we may or may not have in the system already?). I'm not as concerned about this right now, as I would rather focus be placed on defense for the moment.


So yeah, I think we're still a good 5-6 players away from being a team who can compete for a cup. It's of course extremely hard to get all of this in one team, at the same time, and get them to gel, but this is what I am prioritizing if I'm Feaster.

I think 1.'s are hard to find, might have to suck for a few years to draft a can't miss franchise defenceman. 2.'s are a good free agent target. You like those guys to be a little older anyway. Finding a good, but unspectacular 28 year old for 4-5 years in free agency next year would fit in well with they younger forwards. I think the forwards will work themselves out, we have some in the system, some high ceiling youngsters in the line up, and fill out the rest with future picks, and trades for prospects maybe.

Goaltending is what is going to make or break the next 3-4 years, IMO. I don't know the answer there except to hope one of the guys in the system works out.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

PLAYOFFS! How amazing would it be to make it back to the playoffs before the Oilers with all their top end picks. Rebuild complete in less time.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Aww, muffin. Are you a little upset?

If you want the playoffs, you want to see this team succeed. If you want a great pick, you want to see this team fail. It's that simple. I certainly agree with desiring limits on how much you are willing to give up for that success right now - i.e.: I don't think anyone wants to see us sacrifice prospects or draft picks to make the playoffs. But one of the earlier posters said it best: If you desire losing and high draft picks, go cheer for Edmonton.

What would indicate that I am upset other than your desire to call me muffin for some reason?

The poster that said if you desire high picks go cheer for Edmonton is an idiotic statement. Telling fans how they have to cheer for their team is stupid. Telling fans that want to see their team build with elite talent that they have to cheer for their rival is stupid.

I want to see the Flames win that Cup. That is not cheering for losing. I don't want to see the Flames striving for 8th and building towards mediocrity.

Realizing a team doesn't have the talent to contend and wanting the outcome that bests gives them a chance to succeed in the future does not mean I want the Flames to go on a 4 year bottom 5 run like the Oilers.

It gets tiresome hearing that if you have a long term vision for the team that it automatically means you want a Oilers style rebuild as if that is the only outcome from a team not making the play-offs and looking longer than one single season.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

PLAYOFFS! How amazing would it be to make it back to the playoffs before the Oilers with all their top end picks. Rebuild complete in less time.

Except making the play-offs before the Oilers does not mean rebuild complete in less time at all. And that kind of thinking is what is scary about if the team somehow managed to make the play-offs this year.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

This is such a bad attitude among hockey fans generally. 1 team in 30 wins the cup. Your team can have a good season and you don't have to feel bitterly disappointed just because your team wasn't that 1 in 30. If your team is enjoyable to watch play over the course of a season you've gotten full value.

The bad attitude is the acceptance of losing.
Why do Americans usually do so well in the Olympics and Canadians do so poorly? Attitude. For most Canadians (except when it comes to hockey), just making the Olympics is a win in itself. I want more.

[bubbsy]

the senators made the playoffs in what was supposed to be "year 1 of the rebuild" (Murray's words if i recall).

having the individual talent is one thing, and yes picking high lottery allows you to solve this problem. however, creating the chemistry, the mix, the culture/environment is so much more than just having a top end center, and a big strong winger, etc.

A rebuild is not just sucking to get those top level individuals, it is about rebuilding a culture/environment of a team. The flames have done great in acquiring young assets and prospects in the past year or so. the sooner that the are able to rebuild the culture the better, even if that means they are a 9th place team in year 1 of their rebuild.

picking 3 years in the lottery is not the way to rebuild a team, it's a indicator that your management team frigin sucks and needs to be removed. Just look at the oilers as a case study in this.

there is NEVER anythign wrong with winning. the only argument i could agree to is once the team is eliminated, losing is just fine. that may contradict my argument but it's how i see it.

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Even if you only care about picks, which team do you think Gaudreau would be willing to forego his senior season at NCAA Championship contending Boston College for? A basement dweller who has missed the playoffs for 5 straight seasons, or a playoff team that's on the way up? I'll take Gaudreau and a mid-first round pick over a high first rounder and no Gaudreau any day.

Agreed, and check your PM's I have many Boston related questions for you

[JiriHrdina]

There are teams out there (Sens) that show you can turn things around and re-build without getting high picks every year. They drafted impact players mid round, made smart trades and signings - and turned it around without a tank job.

I would hate to see the Flames trade any future pieces for immediate help because they are in the hunt. But I would be OK with them hanging on to Cammalleri if they are in a playoff spot to give the team, that would earned that shot, the right to see what can happen.

This isn't a black and white thing - where it is one or the other.

I frankly think it is moot - this hot start doesn't preclude the fact that in the basis of the lineup this likely won't be a playoff team.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

PLAYOFFS! How amazing would it be to make it back to the playoffs before the Oilers with all their top end picks. Rebuild complete in less time.

I think this may be the #1 reason I want the Flames to make the playoffs. Just so I can shove it in Oilers fans faces how terrible their rebuild "strategy" has been.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by moon

Except making the play-offs before the Oilers does not mean rebuild complete in less time at all. And that kind of thinking is what is scary about if the team somehow managed to make the play-offs this year.

You see that little winky thing I posted? That's an internet "smiley" that indicates I'm kidding. Relax.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Just making the playoffs isn't success. Wining the Stanley Cup is success. We should settle for nothing less. This team has endured too many years of mediocrity and I'm tired of it. Time to shoot for something higher.... and in order to do that we need a full clip in the gun.

Such a shortsighted attitude. I'm not remotely surprised that you would adopt it.

Your argument taken to a logical extreme is that you want to finish 30th in the NHL until you can guarantee a championship.

It will never happen.

Even at a more reasonable interpretation, you are relying on a series of false dichotomies. There is no requirement that a team desire to lose - much like you do - before it can win a Cup. There is no law that says we need to want to suck before we can get better.

In your typically short sighted way, you miss the obvious: Championship teams get better over time. Teams don't simply transition from suck to Cup contender overnight. And that means there are going to be years where we squeak in.

In order for a team to move forward, it has to actually move forward. We finished 25th last year. Only a loser would want us to do worse. That you delude yourself with rationalizations about how we're a better team for being worse is pitiful.

Teams that rise above mediocrity draft well where it isn't easy. Drafting top 10 is easy. Drafting talent lower down is where success is born. You're looking for a lottery ticket. I'm arguing that you should be smarter than that.

[Hanna Sniper]

When has making the playoffs and playing for that become just an 8th seed?

Regardless an 8th seed can just as easily become an upward trend towards a 6th, 4th then a 1seed. You don't go from 30th to 1st overall, then needs to be a progression and I'll rather be progressing in a forward motion then backwards

^^^ edited, Resolute 14 beat me to it saying it a hell of a lot better, read his post again rather than mine

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I frankly think it is moot - this hot start doesn't preclude the fact that in the basis of the lineup this likely won't be a playoff team.

Agreed. A very nice start to the season doesn't change the expectations for this team over an 82-game season. But I've always maintained that accepting we are likely to finish with a high pick is a far cry from wanting to finish with a high pick.

Fortunately (and judging by the gnashing of teeth in the PGTs from the Caps and Canucks games), very few people are actually in the latter camp.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

You see that little winky thing I posted? That's an internet "smiley" that indicates I'm kidding. Relax.

It was more of a concern I have with Feaster and crew than with you because as much as I want to believe that we here at CP should have a role in how the Flames do the reality is that it is what Feaster thinks about the rebuild that effects the on ice product more.

[AltaGuy]

If somehow this under-sized, under-skilled team without a #1 goalie puts together the effort to make it into the playoffs, I will be cheering them on like crazy. If we miss the playoffs as a bubble team, but try hard most games, I'll still be happy.

If this team puts up an effort like the Oilers have the last five seasons for just one season, I won't be happy at all.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

There are teams out there (Sens) that show you can turn things around and re-build without getting high picks every year. They drafted impact players mid round, made smart trades and signings - and turned it around without a tank job.

The Sens have finished what 7th and 8th the last two years. I guess they got a play-off round win against a very weak Montreal team last year and then a blowout loss to the Pens in round 2 but they haven't exactly turned a whole lot around yet.

I would hope when the Flames are done the rebuild (whether 1 year or 4) they are a contender not a bottom half play-off team like the Sens.

[BloodFetish]

I'll be happy with either good draft position or playoffs, SO LONG AS they work their asses off and give their best effort every night.

I'm enjoying the results so far this season, but more so I'm enjoying watching the game they bring!