Want to know why everyone hates cyclists?

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Separated bike lanes are far less about who's on the road now than who would ride if they felt it were safe to do so.

There's a lot of latent demand for cycling among the so called "interested but reluctant", which makes up the bulk of the population. Those on the road now are the so called "fearless" (spandex men), which is a relatively small proportion of the population. Those are the scofflaws (not all, but many) you are talking about.

Is there, though? I'd think there is a lot of soft demand, as in "if it was dead easy to cycle to work, I might do it a few times a year, but more likely I'd wistfully consider it but not do it" but not enough real demand to make up a significant proportion of the population.

The problem is that people form habits, and the weather and distances to travel here are simply not conducive to year-round cycling, and thus the habit of cycling to work will never fully form in any but the most dedicated. You can commission all kinds of studies where people will claim they want to cycle to work, but that has the same conviction of studies where people claim they will "start saving money", "lose some weight this year", and "stop watching so much television and start reading".

How many people use the existing pathway system to get to work right now? It's a perfectly serviceable system, and when I used to live up north on Nose Creek I'd occasionally take my bike downtown and it took around the same time as driving. And yet the pathways had more joggers and pedestrians than cyclists - on a dedicated system with no traffic at all.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by jammies

Is there, though? I'd think there is a lot of soft demand, as in "if it was dead easy to cycle to work, I might do it a few times a year, but more likely I'd wistfully consider it but not do it" but not enough real demand to make up a significant proportion of the population.

The problem is that people form habits, and the weather and distances to travel here are simply not conducive to year-round cycling, and thus the habit of cycling to work will never fully form in any but the most dedicated. You can commission all kinds of studies where people will claim they want to cycle to work, but that has the same conviction of studies where people claim they will "start saving money", "lose some weight this year", and "stop watching so much television and start reading".

How many people use the existing pathway system to get to work right now? It's a perfectly serviceable system, and when I used to live up north on Nose Creek I'd occasionally take my bike downtown and it took around the same time as driving. And yet the pathways had more joggers and pedestrians than cyclists - on a dedicated system with no traffic at all.

It's perfectly reasonable that we could double or even triple the amount of cyclists who regularly cycle - not just for work, but for other trips as well. Of course, it'll never be 20% mode share, but if we could move from 2% to say 4 or 5%, that's good in the North American context. The pathway system is great, but it doesn't penetrate the places where people actually work or do things other than recreation. This is the gap the on-street infrastructure fills.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Bunk

It's perfectly reasonable that we could double or even triple the amount of cyclists who regularly cycle - not just for work, but for other trips as well. Of course, it'll never be 20% mode share, but if we could move from 2% to say 4 or 5%, that's good in the North American context. The pathway system is great, but it doesn't penetrate the places where people actually work or do things other than recreation. This is the gap the on-street infrastructure fills.

I'm not seeing changing 2-3% of people's mode of transport as a "lot of latent demand". And, if the addition of bike lanes impacts people's drive times by more than 2-3% on average, then you are actually making traffic problems worse. Not that this is necessarily what is happening, but sometimes small changes cause big problems, and in places like 11th Street West where the bike lane has radically altered the way the lanes are laid out and traffic flows, not all these changes are small.

And, again, if the habits of the current population of ne'e'er-do-wells and desperadoes are not properly curbed, new riders will emulate their habits and turn downtown into a carnival of two-wheeled mockery. I don't think I can over-emphasize how the vast majority of cyclists in the core have no respect for traffic laws and pedestrians, and only a grudging respect for vehicles based entirely on unequal curb weight. I could probably solve the city's budgetary woes just by handing out tickets for failure to stop, and have enough to build all kinds of fancy interchanges for parasite suburbia by ticketing cyclists on the sidewalks.

[Bill Bumface]

I hate riding my bike where there are cars, but have to do it every day to get to and from the path.

One of my biggest gripes is over courteous drivers.

Sometimes when I'm signalling that I'm going to turn left, people will stop dead coming in the other direction in rush hour to let me turn. Now I'm not confident anyone in the other lane is going to do the same, so I'm hesitant to turn left. Now the car that is stopped is getting antsy, and might start going again. It's all so unpredictable, and I wish they would just treat me like a car in that case and continue one, it's safer for everyone.

My big cyclist gripe is this intersection downtown that I go through every day. Tons of people turn right there on the red light. But people on bikes, instead of moving further left in the lane at a red light, clog up the right side. Now no one can turn right on the red. You're just pissing everyone off. At least a couple times a week I point out to someone a car is waiting to turn behind them, and if they slide over the car will have room.

I'm glad 90% of my commute is on the path. That usually goes smoothly. Until some cycliclists decide riding on the pedestrian part of the river walk is suitable. Or sometimes just for passing. Oh and then you have runners and pedestrians on the bike only lanes, beside the big wide pedestrian walk.

People really don't get rules and guidelines, and it makes pretty much anything frustrating. When I see these people I just imagine them using a self-checkout and it all starts to make sense.

[Bunk]

I think in this case, we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. No, cycle tracks will not mean 100% compliance, but it will improve compliance, and attract more of those riders that will be more inclined to be compliant than current hardcores. It will not inspire everyone to ride, but it will attract a substantial number more. It will not mean everyone would ride all year round, but more would. It will not mean zero impact on other users like drivers, but good design and thoughtful route planning can minimize those impacts. It will not make every cyclist 100% safe, but it will be a hell of a lot safer.

We're not talking hundreds of millions of dollars here - it's 2% of the transportation capital budget, that will affect probably 2% of roads.

[Tinordi]

Alot of strawmen constructed by anti-bike people.

Investments in bike infrastructure pay off for all vehicle users not just cyclists. There's a huge amount of urban transport research to review instead of throwing out your predictions of what will happen. Look up what does happen.

And that's that moving the commuting mode share on the margin 1 or 2 percentage points toward cycling has significant impact on total costs for vehicle users in reduced congestion time, maintenance and safety.

The way of the future is more cycling, cities need to be encouraging it now with dedicated infrastructure to get to those people who are interested in it but concerned of safety. It's a public policy priority IMO.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Bunk

I think in this case, we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I'm not convinced there's going to be more good than bad, but I guess we'll see how it all pans out a decade or two from now. I just don't see how an already overstretched road system downtown is going to be made "better" by repurposing some of it for a few bikes. Especially when the examples I've seen so far definitely affect car traffic negatively.

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The way of the future is more cycling, cities need to be encouraging it now with dedicated infrastructure to get to those people who are interested in it but concerned of safety. It's a public policy priority IMO.

The way of the future is electric self-driving cars. Evidence? Who needs evidence, it's a claim as likely to be valid as "more cyclists".

For the record, I walk to work every day, because I moved downtown to minimize my commute time. So it's not like I'm against alternative methods of transport on principle - I'll be ecstatic if I'm proved wrong. I just don't see bicycles as ever becoming mainstream transportation in a city as spread out as Calgary, that also has a harsh climate for half the year.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Bunk

For instance, when cities have built bike lanes, you tend to see a lot more women ride - they're sort of an indicator species of a safe and comfortable cycling environment.

I read an article the other day that suggested children might be a better indicator of success. In addition to indicating current success, I think it could also indicate potential success in the future as cycling at a young age develops the habit. Future growth in cycling's modal share could very well come from the cycle lanes' ability to develop the habit in today's youth.

Basically, providing cycle lanes will have both short-term and long-term benefits.

[FurnaceFace]

I ride the 7th street bike lane from 3rd ave to 8th. I agree it would be stressful/annoying as a bus or car turning left. I am wary of anyone turning left while I'm in that lane because I can't assume drivers see me. I have had to brake hard while someone turned left in front of me. I should also add I am not a road bike speedster and other than the sprint from 5th ave to 6th to try and make the light I'm going 20 at best.

When I see a driver turning left and notice they have waited for me. I always give them a wave as I go by. Like anything this goes 2 ways and if we're sharing the road, both sides can act adult about it.

On my way home I ride down 8th street under the tracks. This is frankly a bit scary on a bike if traffic is backed up as starting up the underpass hill means I'm holding up traffic or they are passing me really closely. I have started to take the sidewalk now and will walk my bike under the narrow part of the underpass and then if it isn't conjested ride my bike the rest of the way. I don't ring my bell to get pedestrians to let me by, I'm in their world now.

Once on 8th street I will also move to the left edge of the right hand lane on 8th if we're sitting at a light as 80% of the drivers seem to be turning right and I'm just in the way otherwise.

I have seen dbags on bikes and I've seen dbags in cars. As someone said earlier the car outweighs me by a lot and will do more damage to me than I to it so it pays to be careful. I admit I have done stupid things on a bike, but I'm also reasonably careful and try to be aware of drivers.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by pylon

LOL, I love this thread, it reminds me what a massive D-Bag I must be and all the CP feathers I am ruffling of the CP faithful on a daily basis:

- Drive a BMW, check.
- Ride a 1500 cc Cruiser with loud pipes, check.
- Cycle to work, use the sidewalk, and switch between pedestrian and vehicle mode, check.

I somehow need to combine all 3 of these things into one mega traffic violation while forgetting to signal. There has got to be a way to do it.

I also make my fire way to big at the campground, have a poorly behaved dog at the dog park, work at a car dealership, BBQ on my balcony at like 2 AM sometimes, think Star Wars and anything related is vastly overrated crap. I am the worst person ever on CP.

Steal any extension cords lately?

[troutman]

[MrMastodonFarm]

Yup, that's a bicycle in a bicycle thread alright, troutman.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jammies

That's a worse analogy because if we run short of condoms due to handing them out to teenagers, we just make more, which is not quite so easy when you are talking about roads. Bike lanes being retro-fitted onto streets that, in general, are not widened to account for their presence, are using up finite resources for the benefit of a few malcontent scoff-laws. It's especially galling when these lanes sit unused while the cyclists pedal madly down the adjoining sidewalk.

I'd rather spend the money on a few auxiliary officers detailed only for enforcing traffic laws on cyclists (and skateboarders!) in the most draconian and inflexible manner. Once these rapscallions have adjusted their habits and attitudes, then we can talk about doing something to reward them.

Laugh. You are calling other people malcontents? The amount of anger, irrational hatred, and relentless complaining you've brought to this thread is hilarious. Talk about being a malcontent.

Anyway, on my roughly 45 minute round trip commute today, I was only honked at once as I rode on the street. My life was only in danger once on the way home, when some clown was about six inches off my handlebars. He raced past me so he could beat me to the red light.

This guy was either ######ed, clueless, or he doesn't like (hates maybe!) cyclists. So, anyone in here drive a yellow Cobalt? I have a few suspects in mind.


Bla bla bla... for all the hand-wringing and tsk-tsking about riding on sidewalks and rolling through stop signs... people like to take shortcuts. They like to get where they are going. If you never roll through stop signs in your car, if you never go over the posted speed limit, if you never have to peek up at a light you are going under, watching it turn red, then you might have a point. You are a perfect driver and I salute you. If you ever do any of these things in your car, and you bitch (however eloquently) about cyclists bending their rules, you are being a hypocrite. So, hands up... who here never speeds, never rolls through stop signs, never misses a playground zone, burns a red light, fails to signal...

Anyone?

[djsFlames]

Speaking about cyclists on the highways west of town, which is where I encounter them the most..

-They first off tend to pick routes that have minimal shoulder space, one in particular that I often travel that has several sharp bends without much visibility, and when there's a whole group of them clogging up the road right behind one of those tight turns, they're putting themselves at serious risk, and also ticking me off to the point of debating whether or not to nudge them off into the ditch just to send a message.

-On roads where they should be cycling, they never stay on the shoulder, and the highways that have been recently paved have almost a car width worth of shoulder on both sides. Total space hogs.

-When they're in groups, they're riding 2-3 abreast (and again, not fully on the shoulder), and don't give the slightest crap about even trying to ride single file, despite the vehicles, including large industrial vehicles approaching them from behind at high speeds.

-They whip right through 4 way stops without so much of a hand signal, much of the time.

-Their idiotic colored biking gear/wear and funny helmets to top it off. Unless you're practicing for the tour de france, why don't you try staying fit without looking like some "pro" wanna-be while you're at it. I mean sure whatever, do what you want, but it is quite goofy looking tbh. What happened to T-shirts and shorts?

Just me venting of course. I have no issue with people taking out a bicycle on the road, but they could exercise much more caution and use better smarts when picking their routes, especially on roads where people are driving 80km+.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

-On roads where they should be cycling, they never stay on the shoulder, and the highways that have been recently paved have almost a car width worth of shoulder on both sides. Total space hogs.

Oh totally, especially compared to your Escalade.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Laugh. You are calling other people malcontents? The amount of anger, irrational hatred, and relentless complaining you've brought to this thread is hilarious. Talk about being a malcontent.

I aim to be the Sliver of cycling threads. Except, instead of an irrational dislike for dogs, I have a perfectly rational dislike of cyclists of a certain sub-breed: those that tool around my neighborhood being tools, which is about 90% of them.

Today, as I was walking along 11th Avenue, I heard a bike bell ring behind me. Some dude pulling a trailer was on the sidewalk and wanted to get by, which he couldn't because there was a couple parking signs and I would have had to move way over to the inside to give him enough space. So, after I passed the signs, not moving over, he finally can pedal past and he gives me a sarcastic "thanks". Yah, no problem, don't mind me, just thinking I was on the sidewalk being all pedestriany and not realizing one of the lords of the cycle was approaching.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

If you never roll through stop signs in your car, if you never go over the posted speed limit, if you never have to peek up at a light you are going under, watching it turn red, then you might have a point. You are a perfect driver and I salute you. If you ever do any of these things in your car, and you bitch (however eloquently) about cyclists bending their rules, you are being a hypocrite. So, hands up... who here never speeds, never rolls through stop signs, never misses a playground zone, burns a red light, fails to signal.

If you don't see the difference between occasionally breaking the rules, and flat-out ignoring them, I don't know what I can say. There's quite a gap between slow-rolling a stop sign and just blowing thru it, between speeding at 60 in a 50 zone and barreling down the sidewalk, and between trying to beat a yellow and just slowing down a bit to check for traffic before going thru a red.

[rayne008]

Originally Posted by pylon

LOL, I love this thread, it reminds me what a massive D-Bag I must be and all the CP feathers I am ruffling of the CP faithful on a daily basis:

- Drive a BMW, check.
- Ride a 1500 cc Cruiser with loud pipes, check.
- Cycle to work, use the sidewalk, and switch between pedestrian and vehicle mode, check.

I somehow need to combine all 3 of these things into one mega traffic violation while forgetting to signal. There has got to be a way to do it.

I also make my fire way to big at the campground, have a poorly behaved dog at the dog park, work at a car dealership, BBQ on my balcony at like 2 AM sometimes, think Star Wars and anything related is vastly overrated crap. I am the worst person ever on CP.

You'd own the title outright if you lived in Airdrie.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

-Their idiotic colored biking gear/wear and funny helmets to top it off. Unless you're practicing for the tour de france, why don't you try staying fit without looking like some "pro" wanna-be while you're at it. I mean sure whatever, do what you want, but it is quite goofy looking tbh. What happened to T-shirts and shorts?

I see these losers kids at the rink and soccer fields playing rec in their NHL and Premier League jerseys all the time. These colors are atrocious - what blind man did the Barcelona jersey? I mean, unless you're in the SCF - why don't you try staying fit without looking like some "pro" wanna-be? Why not just wear sweat pants and a t-shirts at the rink, geeze.

Not quite the best example of course but you get my point. Hero worship isn't the exclusive domain of road bikers.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

My life was only in danger once on the way home, when some clown was about six inches off my handlebars.

<snip>

If you never roll through stop signs in your car....

I may do some of the things you mention in my car. However I never drive my car on sidewalks or bike paths. (Car on a bike path being a better comparison to a bike riding on the sidewalk.) It is also extremely rare that I would use the term "my life was in danger" to describe how I drive; legally or not. I realize your example above sounds like the driver was at fault, but my issue with cyclists has more to do with the number of times I see them put their lives in danger. Abrutly turning to dart across a pedestrian crosswalk, not stopping at a stop sign when other vehicles are approaching, etc.

It sounds like you are one of the good cyclists; however it is the complete disregard that many cyclists have for anybody other than themselves which makes most of us angry.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

-Their idiotic colored biking gear/wear and funny helmets to top it off. Unless you're practicing for the tour de france, why don't you try staying fit without looking like some "pro" wanna-be while you're at it. I mean sure whatever, do what you want, but it is quite goofy looking tbh. What happened to T-shirts and shorts?

This made me laugh. I'll say two things:

1. The high visibility colors aren't intended to be a fashion statement and are designed with function and comfort in mind. As for the helmets....they have countless millions of R&D into them.....they're that way for a myriad of reasons including aerodynamics and safety.

2. Have you ever worn a Calgary Flames jersey? Can't help but wonder how many jersey wearing Flames fans have ever suited up at the Saddledome.