What could Calgary do to move up in the draft rankings to acquire Nathan MacKinnon?

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Unless the ultimate goal is to Oiler-suck for 3+ years and nab McDavid, we can't afford to give up multiple firsts and blue chippers for one guy. Love Mackinnon, but we don't have the depth of prospects or NHL talent to make a move like this. We aren't talking about Sid, he is a guy that might be sorta-like Sid, or not.

Simple, you ask Talloon and the Panters what it would take to get him and give it. If they say there is no chance then move on. I think the Flames should essentially offer up anything and everything they have to get him. I would give up Sven and any of our other prospects+ to get him.

If they asked for Sven + #6 pick then you give them a 7th pick too just to say thank you! It's hard to say what Florida would want (if anything) but if we have what they want, we should give it to them.

MacKinnon is that good.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

The over-valuing of Sven on this board is mind numbing. Florida would never take Sven and the 6th for a pick that likely will yield MacKinnon. Good lord.

There are some people that are overvaluing MacKinnon over the rest of the top six in this draft by far. He's done squat against anyone over the age of 21 yet. He has mad skills and deserves to be taken as high as he will go.
But there isn't as massive a talent chasm between he and Barkov or Lindholm as many people would like to make out there is.
The QMJHL by all accounts is a very poor league for defense. Maybe he and Drouin's stats are inflated due to this.

People have their preferences and it's nice to hear their side. And again, this is what is going to make this years draft so darned entertaining. So many different ways this could all go down.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Might've already been mentioned, but with the way the Flames are looking right now, next year's 1st rounder is going to be very valuable.

So here's my proposal:

To CGY:

- Tampa Bay's 3rd overall pick

To TB:

- Calgary's 2014 1st round pick
- Either the Blues or Penguins pick

Why Tampa may consider this trade:

Tampa is fairly deep in prospects. They have Nemestikov, Tanner Richard, Connelly, JT Brown, Sustr, Barberio, Koekkoek, Vasilevski. Pretty decent pool of prospects right there. Certainly healthier than the Flames' current cupboard. They're not starving for prospects.

While taking Calgary's 2014 pick is a bit of a risk because in today's NHL, teams can go from crap to bubble playoff teams (Columbus), I think it could be a very enticing risk to take for Yzerman as it could turn out to be a top 3. Plus, he picks up an extra first rounder in the 18-23 range.

The reason this trade works for Calgary are obvious. The Flames draft a franchise player in the top 3 this year and retain their #6 pick who could also turn out to be a star. As well, the Flames retain either their Pens or Blues pick.

Looking through recent history at what it takes to move up (link here and here) we can assume that to move into the top 3 it will take a top 10 pick (i.e, Flames 2014 pick) and a high second rounder and/or more (I was generous and said either the Pens or Blues pick).

This is a good, fair deal IMO. If it takes our third rounder to get it done, then so it does. It's more than worth it for a Seth Jones, Nathan MacKinnon, or Jonathan Drouin.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by dammage79

There are some people that are overvaluing MacKinnon over the rest of the top six in this draft by far. He's done squat against anyone over the age of 21 yet. He has mad skills and deserves to be taken as high as he will go.
But there isn't as massive a talent chasm between he and Barkov or Lindholm as many people would like to make out there is.
The QMJHL by all accounts is a very poor league for defense. Maybe he and Drouin's stats are inflated due to this.

People have their preferences and it's nice to hear their side. And again, this is what is going to make this years draft so darned entertaining. So many different ways this could all go down.

I don't think so. A lot of scouts still see him as the best player in this draft. I would trade Sven and #6 in a heartbeat to be able to draft him but as has been said the Panthers would laugh at that offer. Barkov and Lindholm are a level below this kid.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't think so. A lot of scouts still see him as the best player in this draft. I would trade Sven and #6 in a heartbeat to be able to draft him but as has been said the Panthers would laugh at that offer.

I think the Panthers would look hard at that deal. Sven has elite potential in my view - I wouldn't do that deal any day of the week.
The Flames need more than one guy to build around. They need to add to Sven, not trade him for a single guy.

Mackinnon isn't a generational talent or anything - he could be the best player in the draft, but will the gap between him and a guy like Lindholm be worth gutting your organization to get him?

[icecube]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't think so. A lot of scouts still see him as the best player in this draft. I would trade Sven and #6 in a heartbeat to be able to draft him but as has been said the Panthers would laugh at that offer. Barkov and Lindholm are a level below this kid.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think the Panthers would look hard at that deal. Sven has elite potential in my view - I wouldn't do that deal any day of the week.
The Flames need more than one guy to build around. They need to add to Sven, not trade him for a single guy.

Mackinnon isn't a generational talent or anything - he could be the best player in the draft, but will the gap between him and a guy like Lindholm be worth gutting your organization to get him?

Trading Sven isn't what I would call gutting the organization by any means and I don't believe the Panthers would do that deal as I don't believe the league is as high on Sven as the Flames and Flames fans are. I'm not sold on him as a franchise player as I don't believe he has the body to withstand the rigors of playing in a big man's league. He really needs to get a lot stronger if he's going to really be a top player.

The Flames are in a situation where they just need talented bodies so you can make a case that Sven + Monahan/Lindholm is better than just MacKinnon. I personally would rather go for the big fish.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by icecube

As has been said the overvaluing of Sven here is bordering on laughable.

[Roof-Daddy]

I'd just like throw a big fat juicy F U to anybody whining about the "overvaluing" of Sven on this board.

Kid's a 20 year old rookie with skill oozing from his pours, who was battling injuries most of the year, hasn't even put on any "grown up" muscle yet and still managed to find his footing enough to put up 3 goals and 6 assists over a 7 game point streak to end the season.

He'll beef up a bit yet, and if he can manage to stay healthy will be force for years. He's the real deal IMO. Our fans should be excited about him.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't think so. A lot of scouts still see him as the best player in this draft. I would trade Sven and #6 in a heartbeat to be able to draft him but as has been said the Panthers would laugh at that offer. Barkov and Lindholm are a level below this kid.

Fair enough. Like I said, everyone has their preferences. I just do not see moving Sven and the #6 pick as an overall upgrade on the prospect pool for the Flames. I will take take Sven and Barkov/Lindholm/Monahan any day of the week over a single player like MacKinnon. The talent gap just isn't there to justify it.

If he was a guaranteed generational talent like Crosby then it may be worth it but then we wouldn't be talking about moving up to pick number two or three, we'd be talking about selling the Farm for the first over all pick.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I'd just like throw a big fat juicy F U to anybody whining about the "overvaluing" of Sven on this board.

Kid's a 20 year old rookie with skill oozing from his pours, who was battling injuries most of the year, hasn't even put on any "grown up" muscle yet and still managed to find his footing enough to put up 3 goals and 6 assists over a 7 game point streak to end the season.

He'll beef up a bit yet, and if he can manage to stay healthy will be force for years. He's the real deal IMO. Our fans should be excited about him.

It's not like anyone was calling him a bust. There are lots of young skilled players in his situation that may not be able to cut it or become top players. There is a guy like Sven in most organizations and we tend to overvalue him here because the Flames have been bottom 5 in the league for years now when and haven't even had an abover average forward come through the ranks (Backlund is maybe getting close) so when a slick forward comes through the ranks we are smitten with him. The injuries are a concern and how easily he was knocked around at times. I'm not giving up on him but if you think the league is salivating over this guy you would be dead wrong as he's not a AAA prospect.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think the Panthers would look hard at that deal. Sven has elite potential in my view - I wouldn't do that deal any day of the week.
The Flames need more than one guy to build around. They need to add to Sven, not trade him for a single guy.

Mackinnon isn't a generational talent or anything - he could be the best player in the draft, but will the gap between him and a guy like Lindholm be worth gutting your organization to get him?

Going to disagree here. He's been a beast at every level, no reason to believe he won't continue right on down that path in the NHL.

In Atom, he scored 200 points in 50 games.

110 points in 50 games in 07-08 (Bantam AAA) as a 12 year old.
145 points in 35 games in 08-09 (Bantam AAA) as a 13 year old.
101 points in 58 games in 09-10 (Bantam AAA) as a 14 year old.
93 points in 40 games in 10-11 (Midget AAA) as a 15 year old.
78 points in 58 games in 11-12 (QMJHL) as a 16 year old.
75 points in 44 games in 12-13 (QMJHL) as an 17 year old.

He's done this against competition that has always typically been a few years older than him, has almost always been the youngest player on the teams he's played on. He's accumulated 59 points in 33 playoff games in the Q.

He scored 23 points in 15 games playing in the U17/18 tournaments, playing against the very best competition there is, again, against older players.

This kid is a stud.

Though his job description should include downplaying any comparisons between Crosby and MacKinnon, Halifax GM Cam Russell can’t avoid them. “Like Sidney was at 16, Nathan’s in against players three and four years older, always the other teams’ best lines and top Ds,” says Russell, a former NHL defenceman with the Chicago Blackhawks. “He’s not taking anyone by surprise. Everyone knows he’s coming. We expected a lot of him, but he has exceeded expectations.”

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Going to disagree here. He's been a beast at every level, no reason to believe he won't continue right on down that path in the NHL.

In Atom, he scored 200 points in 50 games.

110 points in 50 games in 07-08 (Bantam AAA) as a 12 year old.
145 points in 35 games in 08-09 (Bantam AAA) as a 13 year old.
101 points in 58 games in 09-10 (Bantam AAA) as a 14 year old.
93 points in 40 games in 10-11 (Midget AAA) as a 15 year old.
78 points in 58 games in 11-12 (QMJHL) as a 16 year old.
75 points in 44 games in 12-13 (QMJHL) as an 17 year old.

He's done this against competition that has always typically been a few years older than him, has almost always been the youngest player on the teams he's played on. He's accumulated 59 points in 33 playoff games in the Q.

He scored 23 points in 15 games playing in the U17/18 tournaments, playing against the very best competition there is, again, against older players.

This kid is a stud.

Yep and this is why I would sacrifice any player in the Flames organization to get him.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Going to disagree here. He's been a beast at every level, no reason to believe he won't continue right on down that path in the NHL.

In Atom, he scored 200 points in 50 games.

110 points in 50 games in 07-08 (Bantam AAA) as a 12 year old.
145 points in 35 games in 08-09 (Bantam AAA) as a 13 year old.
101 points in 58 games in 09-10 (Bantam AAA) as a 14 year old.
93 points in 40 games in 10-11 (Midget AAA) as a 15 year old.
78 points in 58 games in 11-12 (QMJHL) as a 16 year old.
75 points in 44 games in 12-13 (QMJHL) as an 17 year old.

He's done this against competition that has always typically been a few years older than him, has almost always been the youngest player on the teams he's played on. He's accumulated 59 points in 33 playoff games in the Q.

He scored 23 points in 15 games playing in the U17/18 tournaments, playing against the very best competition there is, again, against older players.

This kid is a stud.

Hmmm, I dunno...those ppg numbers really took a nose dive from his 13 year old to 14 year old seasons in Bantam AAA.

Really raises some serious question marks.

...and no, I'm not serious.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yep and this is why I would sacrifice any player in the Flames organization to get him.

Including this years first ...and next years first...and Sven...and?
I like MacKinnon. I get the love, but I am firmly in the keep the picks and prospects camp. It is just too difficult to properly assess 18 year olds such that anyone can be sure as to how these kids will compare and whether Mackinnon is better than Lindholm + Sven + Ekblad or whatever.

[Dienasty]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Going to disagree here. He's been a beast at every level, no reason to believe he won't continue right on down that path in the NHL.

In Atom, he scored 200 points in 50 games.

110 points in 50 games in 07-08 (Bantam AAA) as a 12 year old.
145 points in 35 games in 08-09 (Bantam AAA) as a 13 year old.
101 points in 58 games in 09-10 (Bantam AAA) as a 14 year old.
93 points in 40 games in 10-11 (Midget AAA) as a 15 year old.
78 points in 58 games in 11-12 (QMJHL) as a 16 year old.
75 points in 44 games in 12-13 (QMJHL) as an 17 year old.

He's done this against competition that has always typically been a few years older than him, has almost always been the youngest player on the teams he's played on. He's accumulated 59 points in 33 playoff games in the Q.

He scored 23 points in 15 games playing in the U17/18 tournaments, playing against the very best competition there is, again, against older players.

This kid is a stud.

Really we need to know what he did in Atom? Who cares. Plus in the Q scores are consistenly 5-4, 7-5 etc. and he is on a line with Drouin and a second rounder from last season (Frk)... Mackinnon to me is a Duchene clone I love him, but not enough to trade the farm (and yes Baertschi is our farm system) for him.

As for points, Sven was putting up greater than 2-ppg in the WHL last year, was a point a game in the AHL with NHLers before injury.

Monahan is better in his own end, is bigger, and has 3 years in major junior with 78 points in 62 games, and 78 points in 58 games on a cellar dweller roster. I will stick with Monahan+Baertschi over Mackinnon especially since we will have to throw in more.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Including this years first ...and next years first...and Sven...and?

I never said we should go Mike Ditka and I wouldn't give up next year's first because I believe the Flames could be amongst the frontrunners for next season's first round pick. I would give up any player in the organization including Sven or Brodie but not necessarily together. The price has to be right and obviously some here are in disagreement over the price.

These whole trading up scenarios are just conversation anyway as they don't happen very often nor will they likely happen in the top of this upcoming draft. I feel all the team in the top 5 are very happy with the players that will be available where they are picking. Flames are still going to get a very good player at 6th that will instantly become the franchises top prospect so it's not like the pick should be burning a hole in Feaster's pocket.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I never said we should go Mike Ditka and I wouldn't give up next year's first because I believe the Flames could be amongst the frontrunners for next season's first round pick. I would give up any player in the organization including Sven or Brodie but not necessarily together. The price has to be right and obviously some here are in disagreement over the price.

These whole trading up scenarios are just conversation anyway as they don't happen very often nor will they likely happen in the top of this upcoming draft. I feel all the team in the top 5 are very happy with the players that will be available where they are picking. Flames are still going to get a very good player at 6th that will instantly become the franchises top prospect so it's not like the pick should be burning a hole in Feaster's pocket.

Fair enough. That is basically my point as well. Nice to have, very difficult to obtain, so let's make the best of picks and prospects that we have. At the end of the day, we need way more than one excellent player.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Going to disagree here. He's been a beast at every level, no reason to believe he won't continue right on down that path in the NHL.


78 points in 58 games in 11-12 (QMJHL) as a 16 year old.
75 points in 44 games in 12-13 (QMJHL) as an 17 year old.

He's done this against competition that has always typically been a few years older than him, has almost always been the youngest player on the teams he's played on. He's accumulated 59 points in 33 playoff games in the Q.

He scored 23 points in 15 games playing in the U17/18 tournaments, playing against the very best competition there is, again, against older players.

This kid is a stud.

Daigle 110 pts in 66 games as a 16 year old 137 in 53 as a 17 year old in the Q.

A generational talent would score 135 pts in 59 games as a 16 year old and 168 in 62 games... as Crosby did.

Mantha had 50 goal in 67 games ain the Q as a 17 year old.... same pace as Mackinnon without Droin as a linemate.

Taveres had 45 goals in 65 games in the OHL as a 15 year old!!

[snipetype]

47 gp 94 points.. best player on portland last year. the whl is a lower scoring league. thats 2 ppg mackinnon is a year younger granted but he has beeen playing north american hockey for a lot longer then sven. I can't stress this enough, the most exciting thing about sven is his consistent growth curve. What this franchise needs is our young players to reach their potential. Baertschi, Brodie, whoever we pick at 6, and gaudreau (not to mention our next 2 or 3 first rounders) all need to become very good players if this franchise is going anywhere. To trade the farm for one player would be like selling your farm for a super nice tractor, if you aint got the farm to put around the tractor he's useless. Trust me the flames ain't going anywhere fast we need to be patient and develop our under-rated talent.