Offseason - strategy of exploiting teams in cap trouble

[ricardodw]

I think that there is a big misconception on CP.

There is no rebuild process in the NHL.

Each team gets to spend a certain amount of money and the team that spends it the best wins.

We are taking the Oilers as the model 5 year re-build process. This was the case when Detroit and NYR could spend 3X what the Flames and Oiler could spend. Now if the Oilers and Flames can't compete year in and year out it is their own fault and they have incredibly bad management.


The Oilers and Flames have just made the wrong decisions and are a weak management team and not able to get out of their own way.


Their next rebuild starts next year as their core : Hall /Eberle / Horcoff / Smid are signed for a third of their cap space (21M/ year) over at least the next 2 seasons.

The Flames core is Tanguay, Hulder, Wideman, Gio and Glencross are signed for 2+ years for 19M /year.

If the Flames are not able to add to this rather solid core with the other 2/3 of their cap space and be a more solid playoff and SC contender than the Oilers I will be very disappointed and surprised.

All the prospects and potential do not amount to a hill of beans..... It is all about value contracts.... Ray Whitney's play and goals at age 38 count every bit as much as much and contribute to a team's success as much as Eberles or Yakapov's.


The big thing is getting players , no matter what their age, to contribute more than they are paid.

The Flames have not had this for years. Iginla at 7M 3 years ago was was almost living up to his contract..... not so for the last 2 years.. Bouwmeester was not ever, Sarich was not ever, Cammalleri definitely is not, Regehr was not, Stajan was not, Phanuef was not.


These bad contracts have for the most part moved on. Now it is clearly in the management teams responsibility to find some value contracts.... players that get paid at the 4M level that play like 6M players or at least 4M players.

There will be a lot of them available this summer.

If the Flames are not a playoff team next year OR have an internal cap of 50M then the whole hockey operations team , King , Feaster, Harltley and all the coaches and scouts need to be fired and Davidson be lured from Columbus with total control of all Flames Hockey operation.


Edmonton and Bill Wirtz are NOT the model that need to be followed.

Crap its has been 4 years since the Flames made the playoffs.... 2013-14 is year 5 of a 5 year plan.


The biggest problem with the Flames (and Oilers) is that they have been so reluctant to admit their mistakes.

The Flames should have known that Bouwmeester was not a 7M d-man after 40 games.....or a year before signing him. What were the thinking when they signed a 31 year old Iginla to a 7M 5-year deal?? That he would be as good as he was from 28-31 when he was one on the top 5-6 players in the league and worth 7M / year???? Was he not going to ever slow down and decline...

Did they really think that Cammalleri would ever again produce at a 6M level when he did it so seldom over a 10 year career??

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by blankall

Apples and oranges. The Flames can afford to match whatever offer sheets are presented to them. Also, never said I'd pay Schroeder 3 mil. We're overpaying, in dollars, to acquire these guys at a discount, in assets. I don't know how that affects the price of our own RFAs. It no more affects the price of our own RFAs than picking up a UFA.

Listen, I'm not saying that an offer sheet is a certainty, but it's definitely something we should look at. It makes no sense to never look at offer sheets because trading picks for players didn't work out in the past. We aren't talking about acquiring 30+ year old vets. We're talking about players in their very early 20s.

I was talking more about the inflationary effect that paying other teams' RFAs 2-3 times what they're worth could have on the Flames' own payroll.

Look at teams that have good contract situations. LA for instance doesn't give out NTCs. Their stars don't get them so no one else can demand one either. Or Chicago. Toews and Kane set the bar with $6.3M contracts and everyone else fell in line behind that. Detroit often talked about the "Lidstrom cap" and how it affected his teammates' asking price.

If Calgary starts handing out ridiculous contracts in an attempt to poach depth players from other teams they're going to be in tough in expecting any kind of discount from their homegrown players in the near future.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I think that there is a big misconception on CP.

There is no rebuild process in the NHL.

Each team gets to spend a certain amount of money and the team that spends it the best wins.

We are taking the Oilers as the model 5 year re-build process. This was the case when Detroit and NYR could spend 3X what the Flames and Oiler could spend. Now if the Oilers and Flames can't compete year in and year out it is their own fault and they have incredibly bad management.


The Oilers and Flames have just made the wrong decisions and are a weak management team and not able to get out of their own way.


Their next rebuild starts next year as their core : Hall /Eberle / Horcoff / Smid are signed for a third of their cap space (21M/ year) over at least the next 2 seasons.

The Flames core is Tanguay, Hulder, Wideman, Gio and Glencross are signed for 2+ years for 19M /year.

If the Flames are not able to add to this rather solid core with the other 2/3 of their cap space and be a more solid playoff and SC contender than the Oilers I will be very disappointed and surprised.

All the prospects and potential do not amount to a hill of beans..... It is all about value contracts.... Ray Whitney's play and goals at age 38 count every bit as much as much and contribute to a team's success as much as Eberles or Yakapov's.


The big thing is getting players , no matter what their age, to contribute more than they are paid.

The Flames have not had this for years. Iginla at 7M 3 years ago was was almost living up to his contract..... not so for the last 2 years.. Bouwmeester was not ever, Sarich was not ever, Cammalleri definitely is not, Regehr was not, Stajan was not, Phanuef was not.


These bad contracts have for the most part moved on. Now it is clearly in the management teams responsibility to find some value contracts.... players that get paid at the 4M level that play like 6M players or at least 4M players.

There will be a lot of them available this summer.

If the Flames are not a playoff team next year OR have an internal cap of 50M then the whole hockey operations team , King , Feaster, Harltley and all the coaches and scouts need to be fired and Davidson be lured from Columbus with total control of all Flames Hockey operation.


Edmonton and Bill Wirtz are NOT the model that need to be followed.

Crap its has been 4 years since the Flames made the playoffs.... 2013-14 is year 5 of a 5 year plan.


The biggest problem with the Flames (and Oilers) is that they have been so reluctant to admit their mistakes.

The Flames should have known that Bouwmeester was not a 7M d-man after 40 games.....or a year before signing him. What were the thinking when they signed a 31 year old Iginla to a 7M 5-year deal?? That he would be as good as he was from 28-31 when he was one on the top 5-6 players in the league and worth 7M / year???? Was he not going to ever slow down and decline...

Did they really think that Cammalleri would ever again produce at a 6M level when he did it so seldom over a 10 year career??

For one they didn't give Cammy the contract and unloaded another bad one to get him (less money but longer term)

I agree with the rest of your points though, we shouldn't be looking to suck next year they should be putting the best possible team on the ice without moving out young players/picks.

[blankall]

^^^^

When Iginla signed his contract, he had just come off a 50 goal season and was worth more than 7mil/season. The idea with the 5 year contract was that he would play above it for 3 years, and probably fall below it for the last 2....that's pretty much what happened.

With the Cammalleri deal, we shipped out Bourque, who was totally useless at the time. Cammalleri and Bourque have similarly bad contracts, but Bourque's contract is 2 years longer.

I agree with your point on contract value, but virtually every team has bad contracts and good contracts. Sure we have those bad contracts, but we also have Glencross, Giordano, Stempniak, etc..

The things that really did the Flames in are:

1) The Phaneuf trade. He looks good now. We gave up on a young top pairing defender for no real reason. We got nothing back for a potential franchise player. Imagine how much better this team would be with another true top pairing d-man or an equivalent first line player in his prime.

2) A lack of solid talent coming through the system. The Phaneuf trade contributed to this. So did the Jokinen fiasco. The Erixon debacle. Sutter's drafting strategy of only drafting big farm boys. Drafting goalies in the first two rounds. It all adds up.

[Tinordi]

Iginla at $7 million with a full NMC was no bargain.

By the way, I'm still waiting for this list of mystery players that could be had through free agency that would be real pieces of an elite core.

Please let me know.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames core is Tanguay, Hulder, Wideman, Gio and Glencross are signed for 2+ years for 19M /year.

If the Flames are not able to add to this rather solid core with the other 2/3 of their cap space and be a more solid playoff and SC contender than the Oilers I will be very disappointed and surprised.

But it's not a solid core - it's one of the weakest in the NHL.

NHL teams enjoy sustained improvement, the kind of improvement that sees them occupy the top 4 in their conference for several years, only one way: having a core of elite players in 21-27 age range. Filling out the roster with efficient UFA signings is how you augment a core, not build one.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But it's not a solid core - it's one of the weakest in the NHL.

NHL teams enjoy sustained improvement, the kind of improvement that sees them occupy the top 4 in their conference for several years, only one way: having a core of elite players in 21-27 age range. Filling out the roster with efficient UFA signings is how you augment a core, not build one.

I'd agree.

Once again, Sutter screwed us.

Look at our draft picks under the Sutter reign as GM:

2003: Phaneuf: great pick. Traded for garbage with negative value. The only decent player in the deal was White, and Sutter found a way to replace him with healthy scratch (Babchuk). Phaneuf was actually chosen the year before Sutter took charge. I include him on the list to show how badly Sutter screwed us over.

2004: Chucko: awful. There were several much higher ranked skaters still on the table at this point. We actually traded down from 19 to get Chucko. This was actually a pretty deep draft too. Baffling move.

2005: Pelech: big physical player. Can't play pro hockey.

2006: Irving: a goalie. Always a bad choice and a long shot for a 1st round pick.

2007: Backlund: actually not too bad...I'll give Sutter credit for this one. At 24th overall, this was a solid pick.

2008: Nemisz: Big physical player. Hasn't yet shown he can play pro hockey.

2009: Erixon. Not really sure if this is Sutter's fault. But it seems like some homework should have been done here. If it was his intention to sign with the NYR, I feel like someone in our organization should have known.

2010: No pick. Traded for Jokinen. We didn't have a second round pick either, because we acquired Kotalik.

Sutter was given way too much rope. After the cup run, he became fixated with building that team again and finding that last piece. The problem was, we weren't in the clutch and grab era anymore. Players like Nemisz and Pelech may have been superstars in 2001, but not in 2011. It just comes down to poor overall asset management. The Flames should not have been trading away assets like Phaneuf and first rounders.

Our core should additionally feature Phaneuf and at least 2 drafted top 6 forwards. That's the difference.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I think that there is a big misconception on CP.

There is no rebuild process in the NHL.

Each team gets to spend a certain amount of money and the team that spends it the best wins.

We are taking the Oilers as the model 5 year re-build process. This was the case when Detroit and NYR could spend 3X what the Flames and Oiler could spend. Now if the Oilers and Flames can't compete year in and year out it is their own fault and they have incredibly bad management.


The Oilers and Flames have just made the wrong decisions and are a weak management team and not able to get out of their own way.


Their next rebuild starts next year as their core : Hall /Eberle / Horcoff / Smid are signed for a third of their cap space (21M/ year) over at least the next 2 seasons.

The Flames core is Tanguay, Hulder, Wideman, Gio and Glencross are signed for 2+ years for 19M /year.

If the Flames are not able to add to this rather solid core with the other 2/3 of their cap space and be a more solid playoff and SC contender than the Oilers I will be very disappointed and surprised.

All the prospects and potential do not amount to a hill of beans..... It is all about value contracts.... Ray Whitney's play and goals at age 38 count every bit as much as much and contribute to a team's success as much as Eberles or Yakapov's.


The big thing is getting players , no matter what their age, to contribute more than they are paid.

The Flames have not had this for years. Iginla at 7M 3 years ago was was almost living up to his contract..... not so for the last 2 years.. Bouwmeester was not ever, Sarich was not ever, Cammalleri definitely is not, Regehr was not, Stajan was not, Phanuef was not.


These bad contracts have for the most part moved on. Now it is clearly in the management teams responsibility to find some value contracts.... players that get paid at the 4M level that play like 6M players or at least 4M players.

There will be a lot of them available this summer.

If the Flames are not a playoff team next year OR have an internal cap of 50M then the whole hockey operations team , King , Feaster, Harltley and all the coaches and scouts need to be fired and Davidson be lured from Columbus with total control of all Flames Hockey operation.


Edmonton and Bill Wirtz are NOT the model that need to be followed.

Crap its has been 4 years since the Flames made the playoffs.... 2013-14 is year 5 of a 5 year plan.


The biggest problem with the Flames (and Oilers) is that they have been so reluctant to admit their mistakes.

The Flames should have known that Bouwmeester was not a 7M d-man after 40 games.....or a year before signing him. What were the thinking when they signed a 31 year old Iginla to a 7M 5-year deal?? That he would be as good as he was from 28-31 when he was one on the top 5-6 players in the league and worth 7M / year???? Was he not going to ever slow down and decline...

Did they really think that Cammalleri would ever again produce at a 6M level when he did it so seldom over a 10 year career??

Would you just let 31 year old captain Iginla coming off his 2nd 50 goal season and 98 points walk as a UFA? IMO, Iginla earned every dollar of his last contract up until this final year, I suspect the biggest reason he's gone is because he(and his agent) still thinks he's worth about the same for four more years, I believe Feaster thinks otherwise.

Flames didn't sign Cammalleri to his deal, we picked him up and a future goalie for a lazy bum and a nothing prospect. Considering he's leading the team in scoring I would say it's not a bad deal.

Everyone uses Detroit as the NHL poster boys, how about the 12 year 73 million deal to a 30 year old Zetterberg who had 40 goals once in his career and most likely wont sniff 25 ever again.

Fact is if you want to keep your stars..you have to pay them. some work out,some don't...even GM's don't have a crystal ball.

[moon]

Originally Posted by blankall

Disagree. There are several teams who cannot afford to pay their RFAs 3.4 or 2.5 million dollars. I'd take a look at: Tanev, Kruger, Shroeder, Leddy, Barberio, Aulie, JT Brown, Spruggen, etc...

A lot of these players would be great value for a 3rd and some for a 2nd.

Those are bottom pairing or bottom 6 players that would be horrible to add by overpaying and giving up assets for.

If we offer sheet any of those guys (outside of Leddy that isn't going anywhere for a 2nd or 3rd) that would be a stupid move and not help the team compete for the Cup at all.

[Tinordi]

I take the lack of a credible list of players to actually prove your point as an admission that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Thanks.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames core is Tanguay, Hulder, Wideman, Gio and Glencross are signed for 2+ years for 19M /year.

If the Flames are not able to add to this rather solid core with the other 2/3 of their cap space and be a more solid playoff and SC contender than the Oilers I will be very disappointed and surprised.

That is an absolute crap core and with the garbage available in FA all the money in the world isn't getting you anything to make the team a SC contender even with Bowman as coach.

Cap is such an overrated "asset" as it guarantees you nothing and is zero help if the team is crap and/or the players available aren't any good.

[Johnny Rotten]

Originally Posted by moon

That is an absolute crap core and with the garbage available in FA all the money in the world isn't getting you anything to make the team a SC contender even with Bowman as coach.

Cap is such an overrated "asset" as it guarantees you nothing and is zero help if the team is crap and/or the players available aren't any good.

Cap space may be overarated this year in terms of who is available as far as UFA's go, but it's not overrated.

If the the Flames draft well with their probable top three pick this year and the coming years, it will be nice to have the cap space available to extend those players for a number of years after their ELC expire-if they are worth it-at a higher salary.

Not to mention, that a team, like the Devils were a few years ago with Malakhov, who needs to dump a player(s) to make space may offer a first rounder with that player to get him of their hands.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by moon

Those are bottom pairing or bottom 6 players that would be horrible to add by overpaying and giving up assets for.

If we offer sheet any of those guys (outside of Leddy that isn't going anywhere for a 2nd or 3rd) that would be a stupid move and not help the team compete for the Cup at all.

I disagree. Tanev is the one I've seen the most, living in Vancouver, so I'm going to use him as an example. He's currently a bottom pairing d-man, but has the potential to be a top 4. He's worth more than a 2nd round pick and is a far safer bet at this point.

My list also included Aulie. Apparently it was a crime when Sutter gave him up. Now that he's progressing nicely, he's not worth a 3rd round pick anymore?

[Tinordi]

Oh god, you used Aulie in an argument with moon of all posters to justify your position? This is not going to end well.

[moon]

Originally Posted by blankall

I disagree. Tanev is the one I've seen the most, living in Vancouver, so I'm going to use him as an example. He's currently a bottom pairing d-man, but has the potential to be a top 4. He's worth more than a 2nd round pick and is a far safer bet at this point.

My list also included Aulie. Apparently it was a crime when Sutter gave him up. Now that he's progressing nicely, he's not worth a 3rd round pick anymore?

I can't see Tanev ever being a top 4 guys since he struggles with the minutes he is getting now. It isn't just the 2nd pick it is the stupid contract you give up as well.

Aulie was bad when Sutter gave him up and is still slow as molasses and a bad defender at the NHL level. I wouldn't want him here as a UFA let alone giving him a stupid contract and giving something up for him.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

Cap space may be overarated this year in terms of who is available as far as UFA's go, but it's not overrated.

If the the Flames draft well with their probable top three pick this year and the coming years, it will be nice to have the cap space available to extend those players for a number of years after their ELC expire-if they are worth it-at a higher salary.

Not to mention, that a team, like the Devils were a few years ago with Malakhov, who needs to dump a player(s) to make space may offer a first rounder with that player to get him of their hands.

Cap space is valuable when you have the team to use it and the players to go out and get.

But having cap space like the Flames do now with a bad team and crap players out there does nothing and isn't very valuable at all. If anything the temptation to use it and sign guys to bad deals long term can make it a bad or at least dangerous thing to have.

In specific times with the right teams it is very valuable but overall and the way many fans talk about it I think it is overrated.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by blankall

2009: Erixon. Not really sure if this is Sutter's fault. But it seems like some homework should have been done here. If it was his intention to sign with the NYR, I feel like someone in our organization should have known.

This one is debatable. I think Erixon would definitely be on our roster today if he wanted to be here. On the other hand I think flipping him for Horak, Wotherspoon, and Granlund will be much better in the long run. Definitely a silver lining in that whole fiasco. When talking asset management this is one where we come up ahead.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Robbob

This one is debatable. I think Erixon would definitely be on our roster today if he wanted to be here. On the other hand I think flipping him for Horak, Wotherspoon, and Granlund will be much better in the long run. Definitely a silver lining in that whole fiasco. When talking asset management this is one where we come up ahead.

well yes but that was Feaster's move...Sutter drafting and not signing him obviously wasn't very good

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by moon

That is an absolute crap core and with the garbage available in FA all the money in the world isn't getting you anything to make the team a SC contender even with Bowman as coach.

Cap is such an overrated "asset" as it guarantees you nothing and is zero help if the team is crap and/or the players available aren't any good.

Prospects and draft picks is such an overrated "asset" as it guarantees you nothing and is zero help if the team is crap and/or the players available aren't any good.

Proven over the last 6 years every since Sam Gagner was the best prospect on the team with the best young guys and had the best draft picks in the history of the league.


Right now the Flames are paying their core the same as Edmonton's core and

Tanguay, Wideman, Hudler, Gio and Glencross are not markedly worse than Eberle, Hall, Horcoff and Smid AT the same price.

Feaster has gotten rid of a lot of the super Bad contracts and the Flames are in a better position than Edmonton......

The Flames can't go and get back into the mess they just got out of. The can't go and geta 2nd/3rd line centre (like RoR) and pay him like he was the 2nd or 3rd best centre in the league.

They have to go after UFA's and players that are available because of other teams cap problems.... but they all have to be able to deliver on their salaries


Hudler is not and will never be worth 4M for 5 years.

Wideman might earn his salary as high scoring defensemen.

The teams that offer Horton or Clarkson more than 4M / year are going to be very limited.....

Clowe has to look at what the post goal scoring machine Bertuzzi got paid.


The lack of cap space has hurt the Flames in the past as they could not afford the 2M value contract for Owens and then Bertuzzi.

The Flames were on the wrong side of the Regehr-Butler trade because they were in cap prison. Now they are in a position to convert Butler into someone else top 4 d-man.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Robbob

This one is debatable. I think Erixon would definitely be on our roster today if he wanted to be here. On the other hand I think flipping him for Horak, Wotherspoon, and Granlund will be much better in the long run. Definitely a silver lining in that whole fiasco. When talking asset management this is one where we come up ahead.

As Dino pointed out, it was Feaster who did an admirable job of cleanup. However, I do agree this one is debatable. Could have just been Erixon being a dishonest little scrub to increase his own draft ranking.

Doesn't help that Johansson was the next pick....