Is Coaching the Biggest Problem?

[Psytic]

I blame goal-tending and lack of size through out the roster.

[Perogy Man]

This club has been bad for a long time (2004 = fluke). Owners are making coin. Seats are being filled. We keep paying!!

[Roof-Daddy]

IMO, coaching is a long ways away from being our biggest problem.

1. Lack of center depth, especially two way center depth
2. Lack of impact players under the age of 26/27, and or impact players on ELC's
3. Lack of overall team toughness
4. Inconsistent goaltending

Those are the biggest problems IMO.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Where is this notion coming from that the Flames were never good?

The Flames won their division in '06. They were a solid contender for about 3 years. Pretending otherwise is just revisionist history.

The team didn't deliver a cup, but that doesn't mean Daryll did a bad job. He took a terrible team, and turned them into a powerhouse team for several years. Yes, the team is on the downswing now, and yes that's Daryll's fault, but that's the price you pay for trying to win during the window of your top players.

That said, I think coaching has been a major component of this team's fortunes. I think Daryll Sutter is an excellent coach. I think he was a huge part of the Flames being conference champs, and winning the NW div. I also give him a lot of credit for the Kings turning in the most impressive playoff performance ive ever seen.

I think Playfair was also an excellent coach, but needed more time to work with the team. As was, he still had the best home record in the NHL (IIRC), while admittedly havin one of the worst road records. That kind of dramatic result speaks to me loud and clear about the effects of coaching.

Hartley hasn't impressed me, but I think he is one of the middle-of-the-road coaches at the NHL level. Good at some things, not so good at others, some moves that are ridiculous, and some that seem ridiculous but are actually extremely shrewd.

But I absolutely can't place this season's poor results on Hartley. They lie directly at the feet of the Feaster and Co, for the goaltending situation, and to a lesser extent (pun) for building the smallest team they possibly could.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by opendoor

There have been a lot of studies on coaching changes in various sports and most come to the conclusion that they have little effect other than an occasional short term boost.

Not every "study" is equal. Proving that on average an NHL coach is average in comparison to other NHL coaches is really just deductive reasoning. If they made that same study about players they'd find that they are also average on average.

This methodology is also the same which regurarly "proves" that investors are all the same on average. Just because you can show it statistically doesn't make true. Just as there are significantly better and worse investment companies with decades of data to show for it, there are obviously also better and worse coaches. Take any job in the world, and there will always be people who are notably better at it than others. It's just how the world works.

The problem with coaches is that it's almost impossibly to reliably measure a coaches performance, because the amount of factors involved is just too great. Especially since not every coach fits with every team and organizational culture.

Considering that there are only 30 positions for coaches at any time, and propably at least thousands of people at any time who would love that job, and there is no union, and no reliable way of predicting how good a coach will be for a team before they hire him, I would say that the NHL coaches are actually pretty well paid.

[PeteLFan]

Hartley is awful at matchups. I've seen our 4th line and 3rd line out there against the other teams top line on home ice.

Against LA Darryl routinely had top players out there against inferior players. Hartley couldn't match at all.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by PeteLFan

Hartley is awful at matchups. I've seen our 4th line and 3rd line out there against the other teams top line on home ice.

Against LA Darryl routinely had top players out there against inferior players. Hartley couldn't match at all.

Agreed.

Obviously not having a decent roster makes bench management more difficult, but he is getting out coached.

[Poe969]

Hartly is a bad coach, he used to be a good coach, than he was an ok coach but now he's a bad coach. IT isn't the only problem though. The Flames have a sub par team with bad attitudes (not winning attitudes). At this point, changing just one thing isn't going to fix enough to stop the bleeding.

[PeteLFan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Agreed.

Obviously not having a decent roster makes bench management more difficult, but he is getting out coached.

The roster is a mess, but his mismanagement of the bench is pretty glaring. Many times I've wondered wtf why is jackman out there against a top player, that inexcusable on home ice, especially since its not off a icing call.

Whatever X and O bob showed conroy to make him want to come of retirement, must have been a once in a lifetime thing.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

I think Playfair was also an excellent coach, but needed more time to work with the team. As was, he still had the best home record in the NHL (IIRC), while admittedly havin one of the worst road records. That kind of dramatic result speaks to me loud and clear about the effects of coaching.

He got fired because of the Motown Massacre.

[browna]

More and more as Feaster stays quiet in the past 2+ weeks, leaning towards those above Feaster as the biggest problem., bar none, that has to be fixed within this organization, or else.

Not just this year, but probably ever since the Phaneuf trade didn't pan out that season and Darryl was neutered and had power taken from him.

I am sure those same people in the organization had their hands in issues even then, but when Sutter got let go, some of that responsibility with respect to hockey op decisions shifted, not to the new GM, but to those above him, to make sure that no other GM got the power Darryl had grown himself into.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by browna

More and more as Feaster stays quiet in the past 2+ weeks, leaning towards those above Feaster as the biggest problem., bar none, that has to be fixed within this organization, or else.

Not just this year, but probably ever since the Phaneuf trade didn't pan out that season and Darryl was neutered and had power taken from him.

I am sure those same people in the organization had their hands in issues even then, but when Sutter got let go, some of that responsibility with respect to hockey op decisions shifted, not to the new GM, but to those above him, to make sure that no other GM got the power Darryl had grown himself into.

What makes you think that Darryl was not mandated into making a " win now" trade for Phaneuf?

[browna]

Originally Posted by timbit

What makes you think that Darryl was not mandated into making a " win now" trade for Phaneuf?

Possibly, Daryl has said himself the the owners mandate was to make the playoffs. As far as this trade,as know, many other factors at play there...the team wasn't scoring when the calender changed, and had injuries up front and needed a changeup of scorers to, yes, win some games that they were losing by 1 goal, and make the playoffs. I think Darryl would've had that asseesment too.

They also weren't out of the playoffs for 3 years at that point so a bit of uncharted territory.

Finally, and most importantly, Phanuef sounded like more then a handful within the room and something had to give there. Mandate or not, sounded like he wouldn't have lasted through the summer here.

[timbit]

Darryl Sutter was smarter than anybody that has been here in a hockey leadership position since Cliff Fletcher. Too bad that Harley Hotchkiss and the Seaman brothers weren't younger and more in an ownership power position when he was here as GM.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by fotze

So is Edwards the micromanager some think he is?

It's certainly possible but I'm sure that other owners have their voice so I don't know if it's fair to portray him as the micromanager. It's safe to say he's probably pretty influential and may be a driving force in this whole 'win now' failure. I just wish Edwards and the other owners would give the fans a little more credit as I feel they don't think highly of Flames fans loyalty. Like a large portion will jump ship if Iginla is not wearing #12 which is simply untrue. Fans will move on and another player will assume the role of franchise player in time. It's kind of pathetic how they are bleeding the 2004 run dry like this.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by timbit

Darryl Sutter was smarter than anybody that has been here in a hockey leadership position since Cliff Fletcher. Too bad that Harley Hotchkiss and the Seaman brothers weren't younger and more in an ownership power position when he was here as GM.

Sutter said something to the effect that the whole organization lost a lot of leadership after the passing of Doc Seaman last year. Basically everything changed after he passed. Possibly insinuating that the power in ownership shifted and things were different? The Seaman brothers and Hotchkiss had a long history of strong partnerships that went back longer than the Flames.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Sutter said something to the effect that the whole organization lost a lot of leadership after the passing of Doc Seaman last year. Basically everything changed after he passed. Possibly insinuating that the power in ownership shifted and things were different? The Seaman brothers and Hotchkiss had a long history of strong partnerships that went back longer than the Flames.

And I believe that Edwards has stepped up and taken over,trying to follow Harley's path in so far as being the face of ownership and taking a role at the league level as Harley did. Has to be commended for that. But it is different line of thinking and different style, and Darryl ran out of lives (in Edwards opinion probably).

"Win now"may be a mentality from Edwards and the owners (rightly or wrongly}but there are many ways to go about "winning now",and the ones that look after day to day operations have more control over how to logistically and roster wise go about the particular way they have to play out that mandate...

[Sylvanfan]

I'm not that familiar with the specifics of the Flames ownership group. But does Edwards now own a pretty large stake in the team? This itself could be a difference as where before the chairman maybe didn't have as much of his own money at stake he may seek more input from the rest of the group. Whereas someone with a much larger personal stake in the entity may feel the need to exert more influence.

[Nasty]

I wouldnt look to deep into this. Shortened season that im sure many players bought extended golf course passes before. Kipper was injured. Giordano is still on vacation. But the team can finally score and stajan is having a good season, the backups are getting practice, bouwmeester is playing like he did in florida.
its not as bad as some people say.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Locke

You must be kidding.

2004? A 6th seed defeating 1st, 2nd and 3rd seeded teams in the west and taking on the Eastern Conference Champions in the Finals?

That is, by any definition, a 'surprise' at least! If not a miracle.

They only had Kipper for 39 games that season. If you pro-rate their record with Kipper for 82 games, they would be 3rd in the west. Particularly, going into Detroit series, Flames had better regular season record with Kipper than Detroit with Joseph. Also of note, their 2004 regular season record with Kipper was better than 2006 division-winning team with Kipper.